Pinkboard: MG Graffiti Wall 21

There is a New Mardi Gras. It has made the first payment to secure the assets of the old Mardi Gras. It will be putting on a season in February. It will become a membership based organisation shortly after that.

There is still a lot of work to do to get all of this going and February not that far away. Volunteer your services, or offer your constructive opinions here. Make sure you check out the Mardi Gras website for all the latest.

New Mardi Gras Website
SGLMG Graffiti Wall 20
MG Graffiti Wall 22

Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !! Only 102 days to Mardi Gras !!
countdownboy - Tue 19 Nov 2002 23:20:18

And i'm referring to the parade & party !!
countdownboy - Wed 20 Nov 2002 10:10:26

Were you there Evil Twin?
- Thu 21 Nov 2002 09:12:19

All up, I thought the meeting was run quite efficiently and covered a lot of ground. For any detailed comments or feedback I'll be making use of the NMG website email addy, as Murray assured us that emails to the committee would be read too, as part of the consultitative process. This is a good idea. Not everyone can get to a meeting, and some people are happier to make their ideas known in email or are more fluent/comfortable in that medium.

I also wonder if the results of the brainstorming sessions could be made available in note form perhaps on the website so that other people could get an idea of the feelings bought up by those who attended.

I'll probably get along to the next meeting, as it felt like my time *wasn't* wasted and my contributions and ideas were listened to.
Evil Twin - Thu 21 Nov 2002 12:14:38

we left at about 9.10pm which is amazing for a community forum! it was very useful. louanne stated a number of times that they are not working in an ideal situation and time is very tight. you can e-mail your feedback through to the committee on constitution@mardigras.org.au.
I was there - Thu 21 Nov 2002 12:20:14

I agree the first half got bogged down and seemed like a big sell job for the 'pink' 'blue' concept even though we kept getting assured it wasn't. I thought some interesting ideas came out of the membership discussion but I think that the allocated time was so brief that nothing really concrete came out of it. People were only just warming up when the allocated time finished. I will be putting my thoughts to the committee via email but I worry that doing it that way doesn't promote discussion and idea development in the same way as a face to face forum does. I know that having the time last night altered some of my opinions on some things and strengthened them in others.I hope that the committee stands by its word and arranges for feedback to be put up on the NMG website so that more discussion can occur. Feed back needs to occur as often as possible to allow the community to shape its thoughts.

People on constitution committee who I know read this site, will their be more opportunity to have discussion on membership issues and other topics covered last night or was that our only chance and next time we move on to other things? Also, will the feelings of the meeting last night re the pink/blue stuff (many people seemed to favour a simple, transparent company structure rather than a complex,clever structure..someone referred to the complex structure as being like HIH and I like that analogy) be relayed to the community group reps forum next week to help them in their thinking or will discussions with them be completely separate?
groundhog day - Thu 21 Nov 2002 14:28:44

It was really great, because I actually felt LISTENED TO!

One of the things that I think needs further clarifying is the idea our "pink and blue" MG. The discussion paper suggested that community members join up MG Blue which would be the trading arm of MG, whilst all the intellectual property would be held in trust by MG Pink, which would be controlled by a whole bunch of community organisations.

Now alot of people felt uncomfortable with this idea, and someone suggested why don't people just join up MG Pink. Someone from the constitution committee said that there were problems with that model. But unfortunately I didn't understand what those problems were.

Could someone explain to a layman like myself what those problems are, because I think alot of people were headin i nthe "members join MG Pink" direction.
- Thu 21 Nov 2002 15:07:37

I'm not a lawyer, so maybe some lawyers out there will have to explain further. It has something to do with MGPink being a unit trust and if everyone joined that would make it a trading unit trust which is harder administer. I think this was the gyst of it. Anybody care to explain to the laypersons? :-)

I also have to say how constructive last night was, so thanks to the constitution committee, New MardiGras board and of course the people who turned up!
Zakalwe - Thu 21 Nov 2002 20:57:27

One way to prevent the problem happening would be if only one organisation ie no pink/blue....just what was described as blue existed. One company managing itself, controlling all its own assets, taking full repsonsibility for itself and responsive to its members. This is like the set up of old MG and we all know what happened to it, but it is also the set up of many organisations within our community that work well and are not in danger of going under. This option didn't seem to be well discussed in the discussion paper and was not mentioned at all in the forum.

What I'm saying is do we want to separate out the logos,name etc from the organisation? This wasn't asked at the forum although it has been mentioned in various contexts other forums. There seemed to be an assumption on the part of the constitution committee that pink/blue was the way to go.

The advantage of keeping one company would be that the problem of the two groups not getting on would not arise. Also, a number of people at the forum were concerned that the Pink group was not a community based org, it was a trust of selected people/groups. One thing that was very clear at most of the previous community forums was that the community wants NMG to be a membership/community based organisation. Keeping one company addresses this concern.

However, the down side would be that if the new company went bust, the name and logo etc could get sold off similar to old MG. Of course if the org worked well this wouldn't happen. Its only a problem if the company goes bust.

I'm interested to hear what people think as I am still undecided about the best option. But I am suspicious of complex company structures (probably as I don't understand them fully)
still a dummy - Fri 22 Nov 2002 10:50:23

I think the PINK/BLUE proposal is problematic, unless the relationship between PINK and BLUE is clearly defined. As I said, I don't have any answers, just asked a question for those with more brains to ponder and consider.

However, since you asked - what if the Trustees of PINK didn't like what the Directors of BLUE were doing with their asset/name? What then, does PINK pull the contract out from BLUE - can they do this? If you don't think this will ever happen, then I think people are kidding themselves.
- Fri 22 Nov 2002 12:32:29

If the decision is left to NMG Directors, then surely ACON, Pride, the Lobby and Queerscreen could not be considered - these organisations are New Mardi Gras's own members. Surely, this would be a conflict of interest. So, which community organisations would they choose?

Personally, I don't think we should be making a decision about complex company structures, that nobody understands, over two or three forums. One structure is best. We need only ensure that the correct people sit on the Board.
- Fri 22 Nov 2002 18:03:58

Maybe it is time to try a new way of doing things. But if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Then try something else. Ack! See? I'm not good at this. Back to the party board for me.
Evil Twin - Sat 23 Nov 2002 02:00:54

Community Consultation - Building Democracy or Manufacturing Compliance?

True empowerment if for the community to vote on any decisions, not the NMG Board.
- Sat 23 Nov 2002 10:08:07

This was decided at the first Community Meeting at the Seymour Centre after SGLMG went into Voluntary Administration early in August.

The attendees at that meeting thought that separating the ownership of the assets of SGLMG from the event company would guard against the same thing happening again...ie that this arrangement would secure Mardi Gras for the community and thus would not lose its ownership and make sure that Mardi Gras could not be bought by outside commercial interests.

Hence Company Pink (the logos, name etc) and Company Blue (the events company).

It was also at this meeting that the PLAQ (PRIDE, Lobby, ACON and Queerscreen)consortium model was presented and the meeting gave the go-ahead for the consortium to proceed.

This consortium forms the membership of New Mardi Gras Ltd. The payments to the Voluntary Administrators via the Deed of Company Arrangement, are made by NMG Ltd, whose members are PLAQ.

This arrangement is in total agreement with the outcomes of the first Semour Centre Community Meeting.

Through the Board of NMG, appointed by PLAQ, the community consultations are proceeding, as was also agreed to at the first meeting after Voluntary Administration in August.
Gay Fly - Sat 23 Nov 2002 19:39:43

Murray McLachlan, Co-chair, New Mardi Gras Constitution Committee
- Sun 24 Nov 2002 11:45:45

I agree totally that the two tiered company model should be judged on its own merit – that’s what the Constitution Forums and the email facility on the NMG website are all about.

However, I also believe that it IS very important to acknowledge WHO decided that such a model was the way to go – a community meeting of over 200 people at the Seymour Centre. This community decision was taken BEFORE the PLAQ consortium was in place and well before NMG Ltd was constituted.

I think that this reality is important because there has been inference on Pinkboard of a certain lack of a true democratic community consultation process, and, that NMG is “pushing” the Company Pink and Company Blue model.

It appears to me that the NMG Board AND the NMG Constitution Committee has developed (and extremely well) the community’s directive from that meeting.

The discussion process of the Constitution Forums and the wesite “Constitution – Have you say” has been (and is) open and democratic…again adhering to the wishes of the Semour Centre Community Meeting.
Gay Fly - Sun 24 Nov 2002 13:02:04

And, you should remember the manadate for PALQ from the forum, was to look at buying the SGLMG assets (for a good price), create a new organisation, organise the 2003 parade and hold community forums to develop a constitution for a new entity (not entities).

It seems NMG has moved away from their directive - now selling us an festival, parade, party and launch (including the usual SGLMG gossip on who is coming to town). This non-compliance to community wishes needs to be taken into account, especially, in light of past pinkboard posting on the modus operandi of individuals on NMG Board.

As to democracy, we need to ask how democratic is it for only 4 organisations to vote on the future for our community - I say at least offer the vote to the membership of these four organisations. This way we should get a clearer idea of what the community wants.

Before we commit to Pink and Blue, we may wish to speak to gay games, as my understanding is that they dealt with a similar structure - the Federation of Gay Games held the name in 'trust', and I believe for a fee. I hear it became a very stifling relationship.
Lucy Michaels - Mon 25 Nov 2002 03:34:05

My memory of the forums you mentioned was that those present agreed that the community should look at possible ways of protecting the name, logo etc but that no formal decision as to whether it was ultimately a good idea or what model to follow was made. I agree that the general 'consensus by supportive murmuring noises' was that we want to protect these things. A trust was mentioned by two speakers as a possible way of doing this.I thought that the purpose of these consultations was to look at ALL possible options. I did feel at the constitution forum that the committee was pushing one particular view down my throat. I may end up agreeing with that view or I may disagree. Currently I can see a case for either side. I can see that the constitution committee seem to think it is the way to go. Whichever way, I'm grateful for the opportunity here to discuss the issues.
still a dummy - Mon 25 Nov 2002 17:19:45

Can someone from the committee explain?
- Mon 25 Nov 2002 22:12:12

Having said all that, I'm thinking that there is merit in protecting the name and logo. The big problem I have is who constitutes the membership of pink. Ultimately I suppose that will probably be best done as some combination of community organsations, but even that created all sorts of issues. At some point we have to have confidence to rely on the goodwill of our community members to ensure these things work well. It's impossible to come up with a company structure or constitution that completely excludes abuse/mismanagement/poor decisionmaking in all its many and varied forms. So I'm thinking I agree generally with the pink blue concept but that the membership still needs work.

Thats a long winded way to say I'm still a dummy and don't know the right answer. And just think...this debate is all about two colours. We haven't yet even discussed the other colours gold/green and their implications! Which forum will they be debated at?
still a dummy - Tue 26 Nov 2002 14:42:32

The option of establishing a new membership based organisation which retains ownership of the name, logo, intellectual property and organises Mardi Gras is understandably attractive to many people. It's familiar, simple and easy to understand. Yet there is always the risk that such an organisation could go bust and we could be faced with a repeat of this year. That risk will always be there while ever the organisation engages in business-like activities. We may be able included accountability mechanisms etc to minimise this risk, but as you correctly identify, no company structure or constitution can completely prevent abuse/mismanagement/poor decisionmaking simply because we can never predict who might end up as board members.

Some people may suggest that while that risk may exist, such a risk is so minimal that it doesn't warrant handing the name etc over to another organisation. Perhaps they are right. Perhaps for the next few years, boards may be much more cautious ... but how long will such caution remain? Can we be certain that a Mardi Gras board in ten ... even five years time will even remember what happened this year, let alone be influenced by it? A rich and solid corporate memory is not exactly one of our community's strengths.

Hence the proposal to place Mardi Gras' name logo etc in trust ie the Pink and Blue option. I agree that one issue is the membership of Pink. Equally important however, is not only understanding what Pink's purpose and role, but also being about what is not Pink's purpose and role.

As I understand the proposal, Pink's role is (or should be limited to):

1. owning the name, logo etc - ie holding these things in trust for the GLTBQ communities.

2. allowing a membership-based community organisation to use the name, logo etc to put on Mardi Gras and for the general benefit of the GLYBQ communities - ie licencing this organisation to use the name etc.

3. taking back the name, logo etc if that membership based organisation should get into serious difficulties so they may be eventually handed to another new membership based organisation.

That's it. In my view, Mardi Gras Pink should not:

1. intefere in any way in the organisation etc of Mardi Gras

2. interfere in the running of the membership based organisation.

3. be some sort of policeperson or watchdog.

Several of the comments on this wall seem to fear that Pink might interfere in Blue or some sort of conflict might arise between Pink and Blue. There is less risk of this if the relationship between Pink and Blue is clearly spelled out and the roles of Pink and Blue are also clearly spelled out. That's an important challenge for the supporters of the Pink and Blue option. The other challenge is spelling out the circumstances in which Blue's licence to use the name etc may be withdrawn.

One way would be to ensure that Pink has no power to take back the licence on its own bat. Blue would have to actually do something to return the licence. For example this something could be:

1. The board of Blue decides to hand back the licence;

2. The membership of Blue votes to hand back the licence at a general meeting; or

3. Blue goes into voluntary administration, receivership or is liquidated.

This would clearly put the ball in Blue's court should any financial difficulties occur in future.

To imagine how this might work, let's suppose this structure had've been in operation this year. There were Mardi Gras members who were aware of Mardi Gras' financial difficulties well before the Board went public. Those members could have talked to other members to get the numbers to call a general meeting. That meeting could've discussed handing back the licence to Mardi Gras Pink. The Board would have been forced much earlier to explain why taking that course wasn't necessary. If the board's explanation failed to convince the members the members could have voted to return the licence. If this had've happened we might not have had to pay out so much money to keep the community's assets in the community's hands. Some of that money could have gone to staff and paying off other creditors. And we wouldn't necessarily have had to pay so much to the administrator.

In fact, giving the power to the membership to return the licence might be a useful sanction for keeping arrogant, or complacent or recalcitrant boards in line in future. Just a thought.

Anyway, hopefully these ramblings might be useful to people who have to think these things through.
Just another dummy - Tue 26 Nov 2002 17:00:39

Furthermore, any signs in financial struggles or blue goes bust, don't you think a government agency won't step in, especially if we are accruing creditors. Never mind protecting assets, we may be forced to shut shop forever.

With regards to the Pink's structure, I'm not overly comfortable with this proposal. Why - having a select group of people/organisations be part of a club that the majority can't subscribe to, doesn't appeal to me at all, especially if there is no membership to call that special general meeting.

However, one issue which seems to have escaped the pinkboard discussion, is statistically a high percentage of new business fail within the first two years in operation. Are we prepared for that.

I think we are worrying far too much about Pink and Blue. Actually, I never liked those colours.
- Tue 26 Nov 2002 20:46:40

Then, who chooses which organisations gets a look in? At the MCC meeting it seemed one or two organisations were annoyed to be told to butt out when they attempted to get involved.

We might have a cat fight on our hands.
- Wed 27 Nov 2002 22:06:12

Can't you just picture the VIP bar at a Mardi Gras Party - the Pinks in one corner and and the Blues in the other. It will be nasty!
- Wed 27 Nov 2002 22:20:46

But if there is severe trouble brewing financially in blue, they can take back the name and logo and lock it back in the safety deposit box so that it is safe and sound. So if these roles and the mechanisms for lending the name/logo and taking it back are clearly defined in their set up then it should be able to work.
still a dummy - Thu 28 Nov 2002 10:31:16

Pink's only role is that of licensing trademarks etc. to Blue. It should be in their constitution that that they have no say in the running of Blue.

As for the structure of Blue. Has anybody considered it being a co-operative?
Zakalwe - Thu 28 Nov 2002 12:50:32

I am sure these ideas have not been put to the Constitution Committee, let alone considered by it.
- Thu 28 Nov 2002 18:07:30

If these organisations are to be considered into Pink, they will go against everything that the community desires.
- Thu 28 Nov 2002 23:09:13

A co-operative is a legal entity based on sharing, democracy and delegation for the benefit of all its members. Anyone can apply to be a member of a co-operative, but the directors assess the suitability of applicants. Members are expected to actively participate and share the responsibility of running the organisation to ensure its success. They can nominate as directors and elect directors.

Essentially a co-operative is not a money-making enterprise, so the capital is for running its activities rather than providing a return for the investor. It is entitled to tax deductions on share dividends paid to members, and tax rebates on transactions if 90% of the co-operatives dealings are with its members. Unlike a company, a co-operative does not have to distribute profit to shareholders.

Types of Co-operatives
A co-operative may be either a trading or non-trading co-operative:

A trading co-operative must have share capital and at least five active members. It can distribute part of the surplus of the co-operative to members by way of bonus shares, dividends or rebates.
A non-trading co-operative must have at least five active members, but must not distribute any surplus to members. It may or may not issue shares to members.
- Thu 28 Nov 2002 23:20:41

Social Economy covers the same group of organisations referred to as the Third Sector. They are organisations, which are neither private, for-profit organisations nor public sector organisations. The Third sector consists of associations, charities, churches, clubs, community organisations, co-operatives, mutuals, non-profit organisations, unions, societies, etc.
- Thu 28 Nov 2002 23:34:36

There is also a type of foundation that does not generally make grants, called an operating foundation. The majority of an operating foundation’s funds are expended to operate its own charitable programs.
- Thu 28 Nov 2002 23:42:12

Let you mind expand to the many possibilities available to us.
- Thu 28 Nov 2002 23:44:57

If you were at the constitution forum you would have understood that the community wants to be inclusive. The forum seemed to agree that the criteria for membership should be based on subscribing to the aims and objectived of the organisation, rather than any definition of sexuality or community.

Mr Justice Kirby received a standing ovation at the Gay Games opening for talking about inclusiveness.
Arti - Fri 29 Nov 2002 08:00:58

(a) mutuals

(b) foundations,

(c) co-operatives

and even better how the law relating to each of these makes setting up Mardi Gras as a cooperative, foundation or mutual preferable to setting up Mardi Gras as a company?
- Fri 29 Nov 2002 08:12:55

What we are talking about here is a wonderful chance through New Mardi Gras, Sydney Mardi Gras, or whatever the new organisation is going to be called, to heal the pain of the past...

Please, let's all just get on with it.
Gay Fly - Fri 29 Nov 2002 08:47:02

http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/cooperatives.html
- Fri 29 Nov 2002 09:22:27

There are two groups missing from ACON's constitution that the New Mardi Gras has elected to include.
- Fri 29 Nov 2002 10:53:51

Sydney Mardi Gras
Gay, Lesbian, Transgender, Bisexual and Queer

This means we have a nice short and easy name, which is already used by the community and media anyway. While specifying the individual communities that are included.
- Fri 29 Nov 2002 11:21:34

This is not a name, but a statement for the 2003 season, and perhaps beyond.

Given the fact that one of the worst bashings of the 1978 march happended to a straight man, we should all be mindful that inclusiveness was as active then, as it is now, for the 25th birthday of that march.
Gay Fly - Fri 29 Nov 2002 13:03:01

If it is best to keep MardiGras a Corporation then maybe it would be possible to structure the organisation along the lines of a co-operative.

Whatever the organisations structure turns out to be, we all must make sure that MardiGras' internal culture is open, accepting and communitative for members and the community. Could this be enshrined in the constitution in some way?
Zakalwe - Fri 29 Nov 2002 14:20:09

I don't like the idea that a party boy who contributes nothing but happens to be "gay" is welcome into MG but someone who contributes SO MUCH isn't accepted just because of who they sleep with. It makes mockery of what we are fighting for.
- Fri 29 Nov 2002 14:26:03

What I'm suggesting is that the existing new mardi gras board members stay there as long as they can. After all, they will build up a lot of expertise and knowledge over the next few months. It'd be a shame to let all that go to waste. Basically i think they should stay there until they want to go. As people quit the board the remaining members of the board and PALQ can appoint new people to replace them. After all, the board members and PALQ will have the best idea of the kind of skills and experience that's needed and they'll know who is suitable. Perhaps, they could advertise for interested people to make sure the have a reasonable selection of people to choose from.

If we kept with this set up, we also wouldn't have to worry about having members. That would keep costs down and also we could avoid all those nasty arguments about who can join and who cant. What we'd have instead is a volunteers list. People who did things for mardi gras like help with the parade and party would go on the list and the people on the list would have the first chance to buy party tickets etc and get them at a discount.

The great thing about this idea is wouldn't have to go the expense of sending large numbers of people annual reports or meeting notices, we wouldn't have to put up with long boring meetings where the same people always get up and babble on about nonsese, and we wouldn't have to hold bitter and divisive elections like we had in old mardi gras.

The really great thing about this idea is we'd get rid of all the political bickering which did so much damage to mardi gras in the past. instead mardi gras would be run by people who wanted to put the hard work in. And the other great thing is this set up would really really easy for everyone to understand because it is such a simple structure and everyone could get on with the really important things in mardi gras.
Am I being too idealistic? - Fri 29 Nov 2002 17:17:40

Short answer: "Yes".

Now for the long answers........
- Fri 29 Nov 2002 17:35:23

So rarely does this seem to happen in our world of egos (both 'community' and 'mainstream' Australia) that it really stands out when it occurs.

Good on you both! and thank you for such honesty.
Gay Fly - Fri 29 Nov 2002 23:30:50

Do a first year course in political philosophy and you'll learn that the only way for this to be overcome is to have elections FREQUENTLY!
- Sat 30 Nov 2002 19:51:18

Simple errors happen all the time...just look at the recent past...

However, I think that the original point being made was more of a political statement rather than a simple statement of procedure or Corporate Governance.

It is very easy to forget that there are no NMG staff or any office infrastructure.

Everything is being carried out by volunteers (the Board, the Committees and Working Groups and the Admin Vollies just startng at Erskineville) .... and that includes the Communications Group (media releases) who are doing a fantastic job with little or no company resources.

Everything is being accomplished in an incredibly short period of time and VERY efficiently at that.

NMG commited to "transparency and openness" ... the apology from Stevie and Michael is a prime example of that commitment.

Let's start to give credit where credit is due...
Gay Fly - Sun 1 Dec 2002 17:12:55

People always forget that the greeks didn't let women nor commoners (ie. slaves) vote.
- Sun 1 Dec 2002 23:43:05

All the parties for the past few years have been for "Gays and Lesbians"...and all have resulted in dramatically reduced tickets sales....particularly this year.

I say "out with the old and in with the new!!!".

With the inclusive policy of NMG there are many people out there (like me) who are now more likely to be come to the 2003 party.

The more the merrier!
The New Generation - Mon 2 Dec 2002 20:01:49

I suggest you refresh yourself with the facts. Read the SSO and you'll see how the payment was raised.

Again, let's be fair where fairness is due...but perhaps some don't want the new organisation to succeed.

Oh well!!! Back to the old days.
Gay Fly - Mon 2 Dec 2002 21:35:54

The point with this one is that an apology WAS made...something that has rarely happened, particularly recently and in the past year.

Again...let's be fair
Gay Fly - Tue 3 Dec 2002 10:20:03

You sound like John Howard and the Monarchy..."if it ain't broke don't fix it!".

Well in this case it IS broke!

I say again "out with the old and in with the new!"
The New Generation - Tue 3 Dec 2002 10:23:06

It is one week till your next forum and you have not published the results of your last forum(s). It is time to get your finger out and make sure you communicate via Internet, either on this site or on the Mardi Gras website. You are failing in the process you yourselves defined. This will only breed dissatisfaction.

I call on anyone who emailed anything to the constitution working gropup to post it on here.
Arti - Wed 4 Dec 2002 07:57:56

1. Most people who read this wall agree with the idea but aren't prepared to say so.

2. The people who read this wall don't really care how mardi gras is run or who runs it - as long as they have somewhere (like this wall) to complain how mardi gras is run.

3. Only a very small group of people actually participate in posting to this wall.

4. Or a combination of all three above.

If 1 or 2 are correct then putting any effort into ensuring new mardi gras is more democratic and open than old mardi gras will be a waste of time and energy. What's the point if the membership (or prospective membership) couldn't care less. We might as well leave it to PALQ to run everything so the rest of us can go to the beach.
Cynical and sceptical - Wed 4 Dec 2002 08:31:36

Gay Games Ltd unlikely to survive $2.5m debt

The administrator appointed to the company that ran this year's Gay Games in Sydney says the company will probably have to be liquidated.

Sydney 2002 Gay Games Limited was placed in voluntary administration on Monday owing an estimated $2.5 million to creditors.

Administrator Peter Marsden says the financial problems seem to have arisen from revenue projections not being met during the games, held in the first week of November.

"The timing was probably unfortunate. The Bali bombings in September had a significant impact on the number of people that actually came to Australia for the games," he said.

Sound and Lighting company Grafton supplied most of the equipment for the games ceremonies and is owed about $4,000. General manager Lex Strauss says he is disappointed.

"It's really upsetting because we've been a proud supporter of a lot of gay events, you know, the mardi gras, a lot of events in Sydney, and we supplied them with service for the Gay Games. I'm very upset," he said.
ouch. - Wed 4 Dec 2002 17:05:31

Please contact me through Panther so we can talk about how things are going with the NMG community consultation process.

Murray McLachlan, NMG Constitution Committee
- Wed 4 Dec 2002 22:38:00

I'm continually amazed at the level of hipocracy in our community. With all that is happening in the world, for all the hatred often cast upon our community .. we still manage to be our own worst enemy.

If you haven't anything good to say .. take a Bex, go line down .. possibly something may come to you.
- Wed 4 Dec 2002 23:35:17

I think the posting doesn't even come close to the criticisms that those people deserve.
Just a average joe watching from the sidelines - Thu 5 Dec 2002 09:26:00

We have seen the Gay Games organisers blame: the Olympics for lack of sponsorship revenue in 1999 and 2000, September 11 in 2001, the government at most times in between, Mardi Gras, and now her fellow co-chair says in today's SSO that it's the fault of the Bali bombings!

Anybody's fault except the organisers? Sure Bev.

What is truly hilarious is Bev imploring in today's Herald that people should not think of the liquidation of Gay Games as being related to it being a gay and lesbian event (fair enough) but rather think of it as being more like an Ansett or HIH corporate failure. Oh right. That should make all the small unpaid creditors of Gay Games feel better.

I guess in one sense Bev finally has come clean. Just as with HIH and Ansett, the buck (or lack of them) stops with the Board, and the co-chair of the Board is Bev.

Time to say it out loud Bev: 'I, and my Board, bear responsibility for this failure.'

Go on. Try it. Being honest won't hurt you. The people you owe money to in the community might even respect you. It's not their fault they won't be paid - it's yours.
Power without glory - Thu 5 Dec 2002 12:16:28

Confirming your posting that there are no NMG board members who were involved with the GG's.

The current GG's Board was well and truly in place when old MG went down...and the GG Board, through Bev Lange, publically stated in both community and mainstream press, that old MG's demise was a prime factor for the trouble that GG's was having in August/September.

So GG's was in trouble then. And obviously it went from bad to worse. Particularly when the major creditors (according to SSO last week) are QANTAS - $200,000 deficit (the grapevine says this is the total of a cash ticket overbooking, additional to the sponsorship deal, the State Government, the International Federation of Gay Games (Australian director "you know who") and the rest made up Sydney/Australian suppliers who have again copped it in the neck.

It's probably not lack of "good accountants". It's more likely the same "poor" Corporate Governance that brought old MG down.

Thank goodness NMG has and is addressing governance issues properly.
- Thu 5 Dec 2002 12:18:40

Like Clint Eastwood, do they feel lucky?
- Thu 5 Dec 2002 15:05:19

Fair comment...but after looking at the wrap around in today's Star, they are living up to the promise of a Festival which is totally community based, under the New Mardi Gras "umbrella" and providing a festival which isn't costing the organisation anything...this is a good start!
- Thu 5 Dec 2002 16:06:50

However, in my opinion, organisations are often brought to their knees, when in a moment of crisis or financial decline, when clear thinking is called for, most often bad decisions are made because of the fear in failing, or fear of community critics. Just look at the Pinkboard.

I, for one, wouldn't be on the NMG Board for quids, because as you can see, when the community 'turns' - we sure do TURN!

I hope NMG Board members are thick skinned.

Should we start a sweep? I say, they will be in the red by $25,000 in the first year. Any takers?
- Thu 5 Dec 2002 17:07:24

It become too embarassing to say your queer.
- Fri 6 Dec 2002 07:42:44

In the red or black?
- Fri 6 Dec 2002 11:23:35

But isn't that just "bi"?
- Sat 7 Dec 2002 00:52:11

Now I may have misinterpreted them and they may of course have been advocating that police officers shouldn't be allowed to join MG because they enforce some (very reasonable in my opinion) laws that happen to conflict with the "drug-crazed/celebratory" sections of the queer community. but i doubt it. they were just churning out the same old lines that they always seem to without really giving anything much thought. they were just being anti-establishment because they like to be rebels (or more precisely victims) - it was like being back in high school wher the cool kids were saying all the kewl things.

Note that I didn't say that all queers are like this - only the ones that go off on irrelevant tangents.
- Sat 7 Dec 2002 01:03:36

Secondly, you could say that the SGLMG membership was affirming minority groups like of gay men, lesbians and transgender people. It seems society accepts this theory in respect with women and other cultural minorities within a system (community or organisation structures).

We may have created a new mardi gras, but alas, I feel we need to create new community thinking before things really start to change.
We're in dip shit! - Sat 7 Dec 2002 11:00:29

Trying to answer your question regarding "Queer".
I stand for correction, but my understanding of the word Queer is:
The "Queer" movement started in the US, and is now used by PRIDE organiations worldwide. I think that the term is used to include GLTB's and everyone who supports the struggles and ideals of those communities.

Sydney PRIDE's membership statement is:

Our Purpose: To act as a non-profit community organisation catering to the needs of the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community in a safe, secure, hassle-free environment.
Our Values:
Respect – we commit to behaving respectfully to each other.
Harmony – we commit to harmonious conduct
Inclusion – we commit to the value of individual worth and welcome individual contributions.
Openness & Transparency – we commit to openness & transparency in the operation of the company
Diversity – we acknowledge and commit to nurture the diversity of our community

If my definition of Queer is correct, the term covers organisations like PFLAG (Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) and other supportive organiations that are not GLTB sexually orientated.

The criticisms that Queer have generated are based on definitions - that Queer is not sexually specific.
- Sat 7 Dec 2002 20:12:25

Being gay or lesbian may be a culture for you, but there are many gays and lesbians who would say otherwise. This is especially true of our younger generation who are more likely to identify to a certain sub-culture then with "gay culture". They retain their school friends, family and others from their youth, so the need for a new culture is not as strong as it used to be. I see this as a wonderful thing, and thank those who assisted us in getting here.

I understand that this would be difficult for some to accept, especially those who have spent their lives fighting for liberation founded on a race based model. But just like many of our parents who cared for us and raised us to become the adults that we could never become, the young gay and lesbian will not in every instance become what you wish. Please do not make the same hurtful mistakes
- Sat 7 Dec 2002 21:33:46

You missed the essence behind my post. No matter!
We're in dip shit! - Sun 8 Dec 2002 18:09:13

A reminder about the next community consultation forum on a new Mardi Gras. The forum will be held on Wednesday 11 December 2002, from 7-9pm, at The Mardi Gras Building, cnr Erskineville Road and Gowrie Streets, Erskineville. The two issues/topics for discussion will be: the Mardi Gras board (its role, its members, and method of election); the name of a new Mardi Gras organisation, and Mardi Gras events.

I apologise for the fact that we have not yet been able to get our write-up of the two forums held so far, the New Mardi Gras email comments, and the Pinkboard discussion. We will do this as soon as we are able to.

Two new discussion papers will be added to the Constitution section of the NMG website soon. They will be about ways to make sure that the Mardi Gras logos and names etc are held securely for and by the community. They expand on the details provided in the earlier discussion paper titled 'A new structure for Mardi Gras', and discuss some of the issues and concerns raised at the forums, and through the email and Pinkboard comments.

The third community consultation forum, originally scheduled for Wednesday 29 January 2003, will now be held on Saturday 25 January 2003, from 2-5pm, at the Sydney Pride Centre (the New Mardi Gras workshop will be being used for Parade preparations). The change of date, and longer time, will hopefully allow more people to attend. The meeting will provide community members with the chance to comment on firmer proposals for a new Mardi Gras.

Thank you for your contributions so far to the information gathering stage of the consultation process, in whatever form you have made them. Please continue to have your say!

Murray McLachlan, New Mardi Gras Constitution Committee
- Sun 8 Dec 2002 18:50:00

the young gays wanna bring their fave girlfriends, straight friends the old gays want it the way it was...can we not reach a happy medium
- Mon 9 Dec 2002 15:03:37

For example, we are stuck on these large parties that end up costing us a lot of money, they do not meet the needs of many, they are becoming less popular and there is now the risk that the parties will lose their essential gay and lesbian character. Now we can just say to everyone that things have changed and you will have to deal with it or sorry but the parties are no longer just for gays and lesbians as the young want to bring their straight friends, and they do not want their straight friends to police their behaviour. But I feel this method is just going to upset a lot of people, and it pays little respect to those who built Mardi Gras literally with their blood, sweat and tears.

We have an opportunity to review this model and try out other methods. For example, what is wrong with smaller parties that serve the specific needs of the different demographics, we could have a mixed party, a men’s only party, and women’s only party, a party for those who are into pop music and one for those into dance and techno. These are just examples, as market research would need to be done to determine the best combination. Other then the obvious satisfaction that can be expected from people being able to attend a party that suits them, we have the possibility of extra fund raising as some people will purchase tickets to more then one party.
- Mon 9 Dec 2002 17:51:14

David Halperin has said, 'Queer is by definition
whatever is at odds with the normal,
the legitimate, the dominant. There is
nothing in particular to which it
necessarily refers. It is an identity
without an essence.'

I did not do Gender Studies at Uni, and feel like I'm doing catch up on the theory most of the time. I'm pretty much queer, and happy about that. I'm also lots of other things but mostly myself, defying lables and not making it easy for the punters.
Evil Twin - Mon 9 Dec 2002 19:43:40

The VA is a guy called Marsden...not John Marsden's company...and I read his company's naame somewhere..I don't think in the Herald though...the VA's press release would have gone to community and mainstream media.
I would ring the SSO...the editorial staff would HAVE to know, even though the coverage has been limited.

(and I am NOT having a go at the Star! before anyone starts to bleat!)
Trying to Help - Mon 9 Dec 2002 21:27:04

Oh yeah and the parties were also (sometime primarily) about fundraising - so lets take those straights cash for our own benefit I say!
- Tue 10 Dec 2002 00:20:20

"being at odds with the normal" is such a horrible way to live your life! It has such a victim mentality about it.

It's like going into a supermarket and saying "I don't want milk, I don't want meat, I don't want lettuce, I don't want etc etc etc". I'd much rather live my life saying "I want meat! I want cheese!" and leave everyone else to pick out what they want out of the supermarket of life.

Besides in the mainstream "queer" still means strange - and there is nothing strange about my sexuality - it's completely normal.
- Tue 10 Dec 2002 00:33:45

Administrator opens Gay Games books
An investigation will begin today into the financial position of the 2002 Gay Games and whether the event traded insolvent before going into voluntary administration last week.

The company that ran the Games in Sydney in November owes an estimated $2.5 million to creditors after revenue projections were not realised.

A creditors' meeting yesterday voted to retain administrator Peter Marsden, who will prepare a report on the company's finances and future options.

He says most creditors are resigned to the fact they will lose money."

This is going to be an interesting investigation into some former directors of old Mardi Gras. The question for this wall is - should these former directors be allowed to muscle in on new Mardi Gras while they are under investigation?

In fact, should people who presided over a $2.5 million loss be allowed anywhere near new mardi gras?
Just wondering - Tue 10 Dec 2002 07:53:36

Actually calling it normal is exactly the type of thing that queerness rebels against. We should be calling it common or majority. It is because common is considered normal that anything else is considered not normal.

BTW: I am not a young uni student, I am a queer middle aged white man.
Arti - Tue 10 Dec 2002 08:06:02

Absolute Gay men and lesbians are now the minority. Collective schisms rule the roost and straights to boot.

To answer "new generation" : If inclusion world is so dandy and free ..why even have a "queer" party. By strength of all your arguments you don't need one. And just for the record... your understanding of an exclusive (or near to it) party seems to me that you don't know what you are missing - They were (are??) fucking great. That is why they were so successful and coveted. Tickets were priceless because it meant something for us to go.

But alas it seems I'll just have to find something else. Which is ironic but I suppose a realpolitik way to spend the 25th anniversary
GAY as GAY can be. - Tue 10 Dec 2002 12:28:43

BUT when it comes to Mardi Gras I do think a bit differently. The one theme that keeps popping up at all the forums is that Mardi Gras ( and I’m talking about the organisation and the parade here rather than the party)is about the opportunity for visibility and having our voice heard. The discrimination I and my partner face on a day to day basis is only related to who we choose to sleep with. I may not like that label but society treats me differently because of that label. To me Mardi Gras is the time when I need to wear my GLBT label so that I can say something about it. It is about my visibility and voice as a member of the GLBT community. Its about the GLBT community claiming ITS place as part of the whole community. Its not about the whole community coming together to celebrate all sexualities as seems to be suggested on this board in some definitions of queer. There are many others, such as straight groups/indivuduals, that may join in to support the GLBT community during Mardi Gras, but they’re there because they are supporting the GLBT community, not celebrating themselves.

I believe that Mardi Gras (the organisation) must remain a GLBT organisation and its objects should reflect this. People who identify as something other than GLBT should still be able to become members if they support the GLBT objects, but the organisation is not there to represent them in anyway, they are showing their support for us by joining, as is the case in many other GLBT community organisations. As to who gets party tickets, well that’s a whole different can of worms that I don’t want to buy in to.
groundhog day - Tue 10 Dec 2002 12:35:03

...wouldn't it just be simpler to enjoy the fact that you aren't being harrassed and can be yourself despite the fact others around you aren't a carbon copy of you?
- Wed 11 Dec 2002 08:53:14

The gay spaces are still out there, but a bit smaller. Accidentally hitting on straight chicks is an occupational hazzard if one prefers femmes ;-) If this upsets them, and they are at a Big Gay Dance Party, that's not my fault if they get freaked out by the scary grey haired butch dyke! Aw diddums!
Evil Twin - Wed 11 Dec 2002 10:03:25

1.) The name of the organisation

2.) The Board.

Should be very interesting! Anyone know who is facilitating? I hope the Pride President Louanne will be doing it. She's very good at it and also very easy on the eyes! Hmmmmmm....nice change from the other community leaders!
Community Forum Tonight: Name + Board - Wed 11 Dec 2002 10:57:55

Anyway. To drag this back on topic, my 2 cents for the name is just plain Sydney Mardi Gras. As for the board, I think that will be quite some discussion, and unfortunately I don't have enough experience to contribute to that discussion at all.
Evil Twin - Wed 11 Dec 2002 14:26:04

They are all doing a fantastic job and we should be supportive and grateful that they (and all the NMG working groups and Board) are trying to make sure that NMG doesn't fall into the same ego-driven pit-falls of the past.
All for:
1 a true election process ... hopefully a method that outlaws bloody tickets!
2 direct election of office bearers
3 Co-Presidents...or even better Co-Convenors...(not a President!!!)
- Wed 11 Dec 2002 14:35:27

And before anyone says that "That's like Rio", I say "What a compliment!!!"
The Rio Mardi Gras is a parade of celebration, identity and diversity too!

Entries are only allowed from the varied ethnic and cultural community groups from around the whole country...these groups (like The GLTB community groups) spend the whole year in preparing their entries, and Rio is a celebration of the whole spectum of life...GLTBQ AND "S".
I had a fabulous (gay) time there! - Wed 11 Dec 2002 14:43:43

Will there be a McDonald's at Sydney Mardi Gras? Given that its creed is about satisfying all I suppose there will be. They could even licence an area - Fun for the whole family and not to mention that wonderful range of "food of the world" that they are so good at to cater for the new ethnic representations of community members (you can't just be homosexual anymore)necessary in the happy, free and lovely inclusion world . mmmmm

Let's give it over to "Sydney" see if they can flog the dead horse over the line in 2003. After that who knows?

Where will us gay boys go now? I look forward to our next creation. I wonder what it will be??? I just hope everyone else doesn't follow us where we do end up. For that is how it started the bored disinterested mainstream desparate for something different. Indeed McDonald's making Indian, Spanish & Chinese value meals. How inclusive!!!! (and so reasonable on the pocket too!)
GAY as GAY can be. - Wed 11 Dec 2002 16:51:38

that egroup is already begining to disintergrate into a whole bunch of bitchin' - seems they are already little mini-g,l,b,tees.
- Wed 11 Dec 2002 17:43:46

ASIC - National Names Index - http://www.search.asic.gov.au/gns001.html
- Thu 12 Dec 2002 11:18:55

SYDNEY 2002 GAY GAMES LIMITED - http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/gns030c?acn=076_434_761&juris=9&hdtext=ACN&srchsrc=1
SYDNEY GAY & LESBIAN MARDI GRAS LIMITED - http://www.search.asic.gov.au/cgi-bin/gns030c?acn=003_973_635&juris=9&hdtext=ACN&srchsrc=1

This reflects very poorly on our community.
- Thu 12 Dec 2002 11:31:26

I also noted that the "referendum" of sorts (mentioned further up on this wall) is actually set on the saturday of the january long weekend. I think that such an important meeting where a vote of sorts happens should be set on a day that is appropriate for all people. I know for myself that i have already made (non-refundable) bookings for a holiday on that weekend. perhaps if it was moved to the next weekend, it might get a bigger turn out.
- Thu 12 Dec 2002 12:09:06

Jason - You can think my posting as crap..but no bitter pills in me. Admittedly a few weeks back I was angry about the direction MG or the "community" was taking which could have become bitter. But no I decided humour is all that is left. All this inclusion and rejection of gay and lesbian has created a nasty mess beyond any old MG AGMs or elections. And all in the name of inclusion. Funny isn't it.

As I said my "youth" has passed and I had a fine time at many a MG. Whilst I would love those times and those feelings to continue (a bit like Christmas whcih of course MG was gay Christmas once)I don't see how they will. NMG is all queer theory and political correct straightjackets in a homogenised community and party. Good luck to you. I'd rather have nothing than McDonald's!!!

My point though is that gay men (most I know) and lesbians (see Too much to ask above) are less catered for in the new MG (and in the recent times of the old) It has lost its relevance not because we have gained social freedoms and everything is just dandy out there but rather because MG has become bland and not GAY enough.

We will move on. I hope gay men finally put their feet down on this one and don't go to mardi gras next and create an alternative that is ours again.

A final point. Gay isn't necessarily as simple as poking bits into each other. It is much more and that is what interests me and drives my life. That will in force whether there is a MG or not. That is where I am going.
GAY as GAY can be (with special sauce) - Thu 12 Dec 2002 13:07:56

If people really feel passionate about this then come to the forums, talk to the constitution commmittee members and co-chairs. They are very nice people and very accessible and willing to talk.

I had a conversation with Louanne Lind last night who is one of the co-chairs of the committee and also the President of Pride and she is more than happy to sit down with people from the community and listen to their concerns. She is a good example of a young leader willing to respond to the wishes of the community but like any leader, she needs support from us.

This issue is really important and it's important that we contact our community leaders and let them know how we feel.
Let's Talk to our Leadership - Some seem willing to listen - Thu 12 Dec 2002 13:44:50

The whole inclusiveness issue has been a non-event for the overwhelming majority of MG members.
been there, done that - Thu 12 Dec 2002 17:53:58

GAY as GAY can be - "NMG is all queer theory and political correct straightjackets in a homogenised community and party" - Now you are being silly, inclusiveness is about diversity, not homogeny. In fact it is you who is calling for homogeny when you state that Mardi Gras should only be for those who identify as gay or lesbian. You even go so far as to say that being gay is not as "simple as poking bits into each other". I wonder what YOUR definition of gay is, and I wonder just how many gay men live up to YOUR definition.

You are from a world where identity politics was everything, but times are changing, fewer and fewer gay men see things in such a way. It served a purpose, but it is now time to move on. I am sorry to see you finding this change so difficult, but change is one thing that we can always count on.
- Thu 12 Dec 2002 17:58:48

Or something like this.
- Thu 12 Dec 2002 18:12:20

But yes, you are right. If bisexual people had been accepted at that egm and "Gay & Lesbian" MG was seen as being inclusive of bisexual people, then we probably wouldn't have to resort to being the "sydney" (bland) Mardi Gras.
Let's just go back to Sydney Gay MG - Thu 12 Dec 2002 18:17:04

I'd like to see the final vote on the name be a preferential vote. ie NOT first past the post system where the one that like, but one that the least people object to.

My order of preference for the name would be:

1. Sydney Gay & Lesbian MG
2. Sydney Gay MG
3. Sydney Bent MG
4. Sydney MG
5. Sydney Pride MG
6. Sydney GiLBiTs MG
7. Sydney Queer MG

I would be interested in hearing other people's preferences on this matter as well.
- Thu 12 Dec 2002 18:23:59

This is what NMG was directed to buy and stage in 2003. The first thing parade viewers must see is 'Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras' coming up Oxford Street.

And those NMG board members who support the principle 'we represent all sexual minorities' chant. How selective are you? Have you drawn a line in the sand, or can anybody come and join us. If you stated you welcome all sexual minorities into the clan, you may wish to chew this over a little longer.

If we are so eager to drop gay and lesbian from mardi gras, then why stop there. Let's change all the names that still have 'gay and lesbian' included.

So, which organisation is next, or is it only NMG that show its inclusive by its name?
- Thu 12 Dec 2002 20:05:00

Transgender, Bisexual and Queer have only been a recent addition to the Sydney Gay and Lesbian community. It's about the name not the inclusion .. otherwise we would have call it something different years ago. Inclusion can mean many things .. it does necessarily mean you have ownership. As that is the real question we should be discussing.

We all agree that the original parade was inclusive ... but the march was about supporting injustice against homosexual and lesbian sexual acts .. and same sex attraction.
- Fri 13 Dec 2002 07:16:19

But can I suggest that rather than add another 'T' to the list of constonants can we add an 'E'firstly to cover the environoment in total (without excluding shrubs, flowers, water etc etc) and secondly so we have another vowel to accompany the newly arrived 'I' of intersex. Then we can make up a word together. - A committee please to start shuffling the letters please.

Now I AM being silly but I ask you isn't NMG?
GAY as GAY can be. - Fri 13 Dec 2002 10:00:29

I suspect however that most lesbians and gay men - the people who actually go to the events and participate in the parade will not relate to any of the alternative suggestions Queer, bent, alt.sex etc. For them, such names are too marginal, alienating and probably only really appeal to an avant-garde, university-focused post-modernist fringe.

The other possibility: the Sydney Gay, Lesbian, Transgender, Bisexual and Queer Mardi Gras is such a mouthful and would never fit in a headline or on a poster in reasonably sized print, while the abbreviation GLTBQ doesn't even make a decent acronym.

Perhaps the solution is to call it the "no-names" mardi gras - but then people might confuse it with the italian restaurant.

Alternatively, perhaps NMG could run a poll on the name during mardi gras - as others have suggested. Instead of launching mardi gras at fair day, perhaps NMG could launch "quest for a name" and start the poll that day.
A rose by any other name is just as sweet - Fri 13 Dec 2002 11:04:28

No one has any idea that Queer Screen is a gay and lesbian organisation, because it is not in the name.

No one knows that ACON is mainly a gay men's organisation, because it is not in the name.

3 of the organisations that make up the PALQ consortium do not include gay and lesbian in the title. How can we allow these organisations to decide the future of Mardi Gras, what have they ever done for the community? After all they cannot even include gay and lesbian in the title.
</sarcasm>
Rigid as Rigid can be. - Fri 13 Dec 2002 11:30:55

Possibly we could go back to using gay as an inclusive term? The addition of "& lesbian" really messed up the whole naming thing for our community.
Yay For Gay! - Fri 13 Dec 2002 11:41:39

When he commented publicly earlier this year, ACON's Prez, Adrian Lovney, was in no doubt about the landmark beacon for gay and lesbian Australia - and for our profile internationally - that MG was and, potentially, is.

The MG membership base has traditionally been the tribal geneaology of gay and lesbian Sydney; it's been one of the largest g&l membership organisations in the world.

MG is in a league of it's own; which is why the shock and anger about the perception of a casual, politically expedient NMG abandonment of MG heartland and heritage is so real. It's not just the words themselves, it's what they've stood and stand for.
More than Words - Fri 13 Dec 2002 11:56:04

No-one outside the gay community knows that Pride is an organisation.

ACON is an HIV/AIDS organisation.

The title of MG is about VISIBILITY. Just like when Lesbians wanted their name on the title so that they could get VISIBILITY, so do gay men want their name in the title ie. for VISIBILITY
- Fri 13 Dec 2002 11:59:46

Why has Stevie Clayton been so quiet on this issue? Why has Michael Woodhouse been left out there on his own?
Where the responsibility lies - Fri 13 Dec 2002 12:15:50

Now, how many of us have heard this?

If we want a name that includes us all, how about The Pride Mardi Gras.
- Fri 13 Dec 2002 12:32:16

The Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras is too long anyway, everyone called it Mardi Gras because of this. But Gay Mardi Gras is a small title that we can all belong to.
- Fri 13 Dec 2002 12:36:21

At least, it did mean that when I wrote it back in 2000.
Geoff Honnor - Fri 13 Dec 2002 13:46:35

Surely lesbians can support ACON and gay men without having to be named?
- Fri 13 Dec 2002 15:18:27

That's the way is is for "March First" 2003.

The opportunity to discuss the name of the eventual, one assumes, membership based events company that must be formed by April next year is there so involve yourself through the correct channels if you feel so strongly about it.

It wasn't just Gays and Lesbians that were involved in the original protest 25 years ago next June and it certainly wasn't only Gays and Lesbians who were involved in Mardi Gras in 2002.

Let's realise that we should be at the forefront in tolerance and not our own worst enemy. Over the years, the politicians, who are not blind even if a little dim on occasions, have noticed how bloody discriminatory we can be. Little wonder our voice and 'power' has slowly diminished.

Let's be open, transparent, and, above all, inclusive in the future. We now have an opportunity to be true leaders in social tolerance. The past is important to reflect on and, unlike many over the years, we must learn from it.

The future of our community depends on it.
Noisy Gypsy - Fri 13 Dec 2002 15:46:42

As so many people have said, mardi gras and it's name is about visibility for our community. Yes, we "the community" tend to just call it mardi gras, but the it's in the wider community that we need the visibility. All you need do is listen to some middle age, middle class, white male politician talking about equal rights and observe him fumble when using the words "gay" or "lesbian" (they usually have a bigger struggle with the latter word) to see why it is so important to keep those words in the name.

Given that one of the biggest criticisms of the old mardi gras was that it was no longer politicial, that it had lost it's edge, I find it astounding that the board of new mardi gras took the decision to re-name OUR event in this way.

Despite what my views might be on changing the name to "gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and queer mardi gras", I would have prefered that to dropping the reference to US altogether. In doing this, the board hasn't addressed the inclusion issue, they've merely disenfranchised all of us. Who is mardi gras for now? It seems we lost more than we thought when the old mardi gras went bankrupt....the mardi gras that used to be mine really has died.
Cakeboy - Fri 13 Dec 2002 18:42:21

Good on you cakeboy! Not a truer word spoken.
- Fri 13 Dec 2002 23:06:29

Treatment had enabled most to reclaim life and that, for most, was a gay-identified life. Lesbians and gay men had worked together in HIV and had formed a political alliance in which equity and fairness demanded that we use the treatment moment to look more broadly at health issues that affected both parts of that alliance.

That's not to deny that HIV continues to be a gay-specific issue that requires a lot of resources, or that men and women are, well, men and women. But there is a bunch of stuff that we can do together in terms of ensuring equitable outcomes for both. Back to Mardi Gras.
Geoff Honnor - Fri 13 Dec 2002 23:11:29

PS. "sydney Mardi gras" isn't inclusive - it just dodges the issue.
- Sat 14 Dec 2002 03:31:33

Sydney Mardi Gras? Sounds like the Waratah Parade.
E.Carnot - Sat 14 Dec 2002 10:41:10

I went to a lot of the community forums and I heard a lot of young people who referred to themselves as Queer wanting to be represented. These young people didn't seem to accept the identity/label of Gay or Lesbian because it an old persons label. Much the same as the generation before me called thwemselves Camp a label that I don't acept or like. If we are about keeping Mardi Gras for future generations then we need to be progressive and not intolerant and introspective like so many posting on this board.

By the way Lesbian was included 15 years ago in the title, before that Mardi Gras was called various names from International Gay Pride Day and Gay Mardi Gras.
- Sat 14 Dec 2002 11:43:03

Well stated! I can attend Chinese New Year festivites to celebrate the culture and offer my respect to the Chinese community. I feel welcomed even though ethnically I am white and an outsider. Or the Norton Street Festival to perv at the Italian boys. It is the attribute of Australian society I appreciate the most. The Gay Games did not need to dump 'Gay' from the the title to accomodate lesbians, so inclined heterosexuals or other labels of identity, or Justice Michael Kirby's passionate speech of inclusion.

The fact that I am GAY is very VISIBLE. I attended a work Christmas function one year with my partner which caused all sorts of fuss in the office. Even though everyone new I was gay, it was a very different matter to them that it was VISIBLE and that they were confronted with it. I include people of many persuasions in my life and the key ingredient for our relationship is mutual RESPECT. If I need to change my label to accomodate someone in my life, quite frankly that person is not worth including.

I have no problem with anyone who attends a G+L function, be it MG, PRIDE or the Sister's Zoo Walk so long as they are supporters and RESPECT (note: I did not use the word TOLERATE) our culture and do not work against our interests, and that also means the politiclly expedient. I support the concept of inclusion, but inclusion of like minded people and supporters in our culture and our aims. I do not support the notion of ACCEPTANCE or TOLERANCE through the dilution of our culture by assimilation and invisibility.
Polly Tickle/lobbyist for ethel yarwood enterprises - Sat 14 Dec 2002 12:55:58

problem solved
safety net - Sat 14 Dec 2002 15:00:06

Bravo! Thank you for reminding us that the gay games was didn't have to include lesbian or any other descriptor to make people feel part of the event.

Oh, except for Stevie Clayton .. who at one of the gay games forum felt complelled to challenge the Federation of Gay Games on why the word 'lesbian' was included. Strange, she didn't suggest to drop the word 'gay'.

How quickly things can change.
- Sat 14 Dec 2002 19:24:30

It isn't always about today's generation! So much for 'inclusion'.
- Sat 14 Dec 2002 19:26:14

If they are about community, then they must respect the community wishes ..if it was a majority.
- Sat 14 Dec 2002 19:30:07

The young people who attended the community forum are very much uni students with all the benefits and priveliges afforded to uni students (I know about them I was one) - and yes they (the ones at the forum) identified as queer.

But they do not represent the whole of the youth in our community. I'd say you should go and ask the twenty 10 kids how they identify (or even whether they identify at all). I suspect you'll get a very different answer.

having not long ago left my "youth" i can say that the overwhelming majority of the people i associated with identified as "gay" or "bi" or "lesbian" etc. I don't think that there were very many who identified as "queer" at all. I suspect that across sydney it's still the same picture.
- Sat 14 Dec 2002 19:34:00

I was around in '78...not a civil rights "active" activist...
however I WAS there in May/June 1985 outside Parliament House.

Memories I have of those days...of fear, vilification, illegality and so on, and my experiences today, tell me that WE HAVE MOVED ON!

We fought for quality before the law...and apart from several still glaring omissions...it is folly to insist that in 2002, in this city, we still face the same fear and vilification. We face less overt discrimination from the general public than some of our ethnic monorities, who because of their appearance and customs, are currently vilified and threatened.

And as for 2003, the entire NSW community (not just G&L) WILL feel the extent of the untramelled powers of the Government under the new 2002 NSW Terorism Act. This is what we, as citizens, should be starting to be vocal about!

It is time that we all GROW UP! and agree to disagree...and then get on with the things that really matter to our communities equal age of consent, parenting AND OUR Australian community in which our civil rights are more under threat now than they were since the decriminalisation laws of 1985.
Gay Fly - Sat 14 Dec 2002 21:22:51

Do you really think that after 25 years there is anyone in Australia that *doesn't* think Mardi Gras is a gay event?
Evil Twin - Sun 15 Dec 2002 02:01:19

I think we should go back to Sdyney Gay MG and let people work out what Gay means for them. Its the term that encompassed all sexualities and transgendered people back when MG started. so lets go back to it so that the most amount of people are at least partyl satisfied.
- Sun 15 Dec 2002 03:08:49

The New Mardi Gras website was updated yesterday to provide more information on the consultation process for a future Mardi Gras. There is now more detail on how the community is involved in the decision-making that will shape the future of our organisation and its events. This has been developed following the community forums held so far, and as issues and concerns have been identified.

Two new discussion papers are now available:

· ‘Mardi Gras Pink and Mardi Gras Blue: too many colours?’ and
· ‘Mardi Gras Pink: possible criteria for membership’.

In addition, the consultation timeframe document has been more fully developed.

These three documents can be downloaded from the website, and hard copies are available from the reception area of The Mardi Gras Building, Erskineville.

A write-up of the first two community forums is also now available, and write-ups from the other forums held so far (including last Wednesday night’s inclusive, difficult and rewarding discussion of the name for a new Mardi Gras) are being developed.

The Constitution Committee is also working on an analysis of the email feedback it has received so far.

In mid-January 2003, position papers will be circulated on the following:

· purpose and objectives, and name
· company structure
· membership
· management and corporate governance
· a constitution.

The community will be able to comment on these papers through the New Mardi Gras email feedback facility, and discuss them and indicate to the Constitution Committee its preferred position on these issues, at the final community forum to be held on Saturday 25 January 2003.

Please use the various avenues available, including Pinkboard, to have your say on the future of our Mardi Gras.

Murray McLachlan, Co-chair, New Mardi Gras Constitution Committee
- Sun 15 Dec 2002 09:28:23

What are doing posting on pinkboard at 3.30 on a Saturday night ?

Since when has Arq had a public computer ???
- Sun 15 Dec 2002 11:21:01

As a BTQ person I have serious concerns with the term gay and lesbian, as it splits the community down gender lines. To split down gender lines is ridiculous for trannies for obvious reasons, it also reinforces the invisibility and exclusion of bisexuals and queers who see the splitting of their communities down genders lines as offensive.

As for queer, I agree that there are many community members including BT people who do not relate to the term, so we would have a lot of work in front of us if we want to use it as an inclusive term. This could be done if we all agreed on promoting queer as the one word that represents us, but I do not see that happening.

The only way I see out of this argument is to call it Mardi Gras and then represent the groups after the name. Everyone knows what is meant when someone says Mardi Gras, no one in casual conversation every called it The Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras.

It is what the parade means that really matters, not what it is called (unless the name deliberately excludes or makes invisible some of the groups).
A BTQ person. - Sun 15 Dec 2002 11:55:36

Not everyone is the enemy anymore, and the sooner many of you realise that the sooner we will win every battle.
Stop undermining us by making enemies from our allies. - Sun 15 Dec 2002 13:15:28

I think that you are correct in saying that the wider world doesn't care...
BUT THIS IS THE PRECISE REASON THAT "OUR" WIDER COMMUNITY MUST CARE.

I remember the bitter debate around the inclusion of "Lesbian" in Nov 1988...(an inclusion which I supported for all it matters).

AND the extreme hurt and bitterness in 1999 when "bisexuals" were excluded on a constitutional technicality.

Yet after all these lessons, all you seem to want is the continuation of "exclusiveness"...

Well that time has passed, thank god or whatever.

YES, there are still many discriminatory situations we all have to face in both urban and certainly rural areas...but do you know something? .... bisexuals have to face them too, so do transgenders and transexuals...and young people who DON"T want to be labeled by your definitions. This fact may be a bitter pill for some G's & L's to swallow. BUT IT IS F A C T.

The Mardi Gras Parade is STILL the public forum that it was in 1987, in 1989 and in 2002...so too will it be in 2003. All you are talking about is a lead banner when it really comes down to it.
Gay Fly - Sun 15 Dec 2002 13:53:29

NMG has obviously decided to do a bit of social engineering to get around this bewildering lack of engagement. And they've given us "Sydney Mardi Gras - A Culture That Dare Not Speak It's Name In Case Someone is Offended"

It was, is and will be about sexuality. Homosexuality to be precise. And that has, can and will continue to include trannies and bi's as/if they choose. If we can't deal with that as the central cultural reality of Mardi Gras then why are we bothering to resurrect it?

Is there the biggest opening here for someone to do an alternative gay party on MG night next year or what?
- Sun 15 Dec 2002 15:55:01

That's what we've built here over the last 30 years. It has always been evolving and shaping but it does it in it's own time. You can't deconstruct community by committee decision or get rid of gay and lesbian because it doesn't sort of like personally suit your currently Queer politics.

To the poster who was concerned that Queers at the NMG meeting thought gay and lesbian was about old people I can offer some reassurance. About 4,000 gay men died from AIDS in Sydney in the 10 years between the mid 80's and mid 90's. As far as I'm concerned they're forever young gay men.
- Sun 15 Dec 2002 16:10:35

The transgender individuals can identify both as straight or gay & lesbian; so do bisexual individuals. As for queer, again this is a label which allows individuals to move freely along the line.

Fundamentally, inclusion is NOT about ownership - it is about sharing and working together. Lets all remember this.

We have read many examples on inclusion posted on this board, which proves that inclusion doesn't account to ownership to an event, land or organisation. If that is the case, we are saying that our country can be changed be altered and changed because of our inclusion policy.

If we use Michael and Stevie's principles on inclusion across another spectrum, Australia is an Asian country.
- Sun 15 Dec 2002 17:25:18

"The 'constitutional technicality'that operated against bisexual inclusion in 99" was engineered by G's & L's for G's & L's and required a 75% majority of a G & L membership...yet against all the gerrymandering, the vote was still 56% in favour.

You are engineering social history yourself.
Gay Fly - Sun 15 Dec 2002 18:25:36

Gee, lets think laterally here, why not call the month something different to the parade, say - Queer Carnivale 2003(the event's name for the month), and then say it incorporates the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras Parade.

Eventually this will give any future mardi gras board a truly broader scope, to attract sponsors, punters and satisfy everyone that the event is inclusive.

What do people think?
I'm too idealistic for my own good - Sun 15 Dec 2002 18:31:54

BTQ people have been involved in building Mardi Gras into the internationally renown event it is, many were arrested or beaten at the first parade in 1978, many died during the AIDS epidemic. of the 80s and 90s. Yet throughout Mardi Gras' history they have been made invisible and often forced to live in either a gay and lesbian closet or a heterosexual closet.

My question is whether gay and lesbian people are willing to share the parade with BTQ people?
A BTQ person. - Sun 15 Dec 2002 19:29:25

The current issue is about the excision of the culture brand of the overwhelming majority of those for whom MG was and is about and the fairly major upwelling of anger that has caused.

I think "I'm too idealistic etc" is on to it. The NMG Board needs to revisit the issue and come up with a different solution.
OK, Real Issue - Mon 16 Dec 2002 09:21:18

And I too go to uni before anyone can comment that I do not know what I am talking about.
- Mon 16 Dec 2002 10:42:36

"Sydney Gay, Lesbian, Transgender, Bisexual and Queer Mardi Gras Parade" or "Sydney GLTBQ Mardi Gras Parade" for short.

Since having the words Gay and Lesbian in the title is important to many, and having all groups being treated as equals is important to many. The above seems to be the only solution.

Any comments?
Solutions - Mon 16 Dec 2002 10:47:24

A Gay and Lesbian community & a BTQ community let's just go our own ways and celebrate and identify accordingly. Diversity doesn't necessarily mean being together it actually mean separateness.

As for Mardi Gras I think it is time to let it go! It is causing too much trouble
- Mon 16 Dec 2002 11:15:15

But then we have the problem of which of the titles goes first!! LGBT? or GLBT? or BLGT? ;)

Seriously though, that title is just too long to be practical. I wish it wasn't, as it would be the ideal solution and everyone would be included (except those nasty queer uni students who don't identify at all) - but it's just too long for the media (and that is my primary concern) to be able to print that all in their newspapers or their broadcasts andthus give us the visibility that this event gives us.

I'm being swayed more and more by "A BTQ person" and agree that G+L is dividing things down gender lines and thus leaves the Ts out in the cold.

Thus, I'm going to cast my vote for "Sydney Gay MG" - where GAY is used in the 1978 sense.
- Mon 16 Dec 2002 12:44:34

It's not two communities, it's alot more than that!

I have more in common with a bisexual man, than I do with a lesbian. In fact I've got more in common with a bisexual woman that I do lesbians!

I think it's unrealistic to say we go our separate ways - if we did, we'd be going our separate ways with lesbians as well!
Just a simple G - Mon 16 Dec 2002 12:47:04

I agree that many make money without putting back in, but these are not the same people who now have to struggle over the festive seasion with less money then they expected they would have.

Please stop the spin and address the real issues.
Real issues please - Mon 16 Dec 2002 12:54:49

It seems to me that there's something pretty obvious about what that could potentially provide, in the sense of some community support/assistance. And if gay and lesbian community is as real as we're saying, it should.
Commspirit - Mon 16 Dec 2002 12:59:10

You could call it the "Oscar Wilde" I guess, the festival that dares not speak it's name.....
Lord Alfred Douglas - Mon 16 Dec 2002 13:15:54

btw: I'm a QueerBiLeatherDyke and not complaining about how *we* have been marginalised in previous SGLMGparades ...
Sydney QueerBiLeatherDyke - Mon 16 Dec 2002 18:17:36

Think, Love! Small businesses do pay for the event and contribute the funds .. the question is whether we think they should give more.
- Mon 16 Dec 2002 18:35:14

Why isn't there another public forum about this?

To Murray Mc. who we know reads this board can we please have a public forum to debate this issue, with the NMG Board and PALQ.
- Mon 16 Dec 2002 18:41:29

There has been a name change. Are you BTQties trying to tell us that people will think that is an event of no significance?

And let me remind you: these things are labels too: Sydney. Mardi. Gras.

If I was a mother of 8 in the suburbs I'd be already organising my street's contribution to the Sydney (yeah! I'm Sydney) Mardi Gras.

If I were Gay or Lesbian (which I am) I'd be wondering where else to spend the night.

You bleeding bloody BTQties - if you're not gay and Lesbian, why don't you go and spoil something that belongs to you?

Sincerely,
Evelyn Carnot - Mon 16 Dec 2002 20:11:01

Just____Don't____Go!
E.Carnot - Mon 16 Dec 2002 21:06:51

Mon 16 Dec 2002 21:24:00 - Bisexuals are same sex attracted AND opposite sex attracted. They are neither exclusively heterosexual or homosexual. Ther are both. Can this be spelt out any clearer?

Evelyn Carnot - MG belongs to the B and T as much as it belongs to the G and L. They have been part of it ever since the beginning. Q is more recent, but they also should be included.

It is time to learn that tolerance and acceptance is a two way street.
Arti - Mon 16 Dec 2002 22:16:47

It's bigots like you who make me want to vote for it to be the Queer MGm even though I HATE the name!

BTQs have been a part of this from the begining!!!!!! That is a FACT and cannot be denied. and if GLBTQ MG wasn't so long THAT's what it'd be called.

And I should just remind you that alot of people have been saying we got into this naming mess because Lesbians wanted to be included in the title separately to "Gay" men. ...and I'm begining to agree with them.
Just a G - Mon 16 Dec 2002 23:33:16

here's a little lesson for you.

B = bisexual = attracted to both sexes ie. sometimes attracted to the SAME sex (therefore they fit under the title of Same Sex attracted).

T = transgendered = not about the gender of your partners but about you own gender. (and have been an integral part of this from the begining therefore MUST be included now)
Just a G - Mon 16 Dec 2002 23:39:41

Lesbians have been excluded from IVF programs so....

Just____Don't____Go!
- Mon 16 Dec 2002 23:42:23

Granted Gay men and Lesbians have their differences and I have to admit I have not supported the concept of coalitionism due to the fact that gay men (the overwhelming majority of old MG members and consistently paying patrons - a point hopelessly missed by NMG as they fawn pathetically over every "probable" sexual schism!!) lost out at parties and the festival eg the loss of sex at parties, the gender parity of shows and babies leading the parade in 2001.

However in 2002 I HAVE NEVER FELT MORE UNITED WITH LESBIANS!!!!!!

Primarily because we are under attack here. And whilst we may not relate culturally (personally I have deep connections with straight women more than lesbians - but I have never brought them to party!) Gay men and Lesbians are fighting for the same RIGHTS!!!! And on this we are together!! The conumdrum of our incrediable difference whilst fighting for the same rights is a dynamic presence in the world and maybe even our meaning.

Bi-sexauls, straights and Queers (a label when you want a label that isn't a label!) have ALL the RIGHTs that gay men and lesbians don't have! The have a CHOICE.

So I second the motion raised above for an alternative Gay and Lesbian event or events on March First. Let "Sydney" Mardi Gras and Rupert Murdoch dance the night away with their generic nothingness.

Let't start fighting for our place again!!! Label me!

Such an appropriate 25th Anniversary
Gay as Gay can be. - Tue 17 Dec 2002 09:30:21

Too much swirling, whirling fantasy.

Not enought logic.

You all need a history lesson. Go to the library.

1. Prove to me, for a moment, if you will, that BTQ is not included under the G&L umbrella. Whoever said it wasnt? I remember a tranny on te Lead float, once. I'm the father of three children. Am I bisexual? Like hell. And Queer - oh, how 1987 (yawn).

2. How about all those straight people who have sex with those of their own gender (an interesting fact to emerge in recent HIV research). They do it cause it's 'dirty' and exciting, not because they're 'attracted to their own gender', etc.

Shouldn't they be included too?

3. All this bickering is sickening. It's internal, anyway: the most important thing about the Mardi Gras is that it is about Not Being Straight. About being discriminated against by a sexual majority. And about not taking crap from creeps.

You BTQtie bigots make me gag.

With sincere and seasonal best wishes
Evelyn Carnot - Tue 17 Dec 2002 09:44:48

There is a school of thought which says that any discrimination, harrasment and hatred that "bisexuals" and "queers" might experience, is simply homophobia. I think that if we asked those persons who perpetrate such discrimination, harrasment and hatred what their target was, I'm sure they'd say they were after the "gays" and "lesbians", the "poofs" and "dykes". They probably wouldn't even recognise "queer" as a separate identity. Also, there might be some merit to the theory that in relation to "bisexuals", it is fundamentally the same sex component of orientation which plays in the mind of the perpetrator.

If one accepts the proposition that one of the functions of mardi gras, amongst other things, is to address this discrimination, harrasment and hatred and to give visibility to our homosexuality in the face of those who would prefer that we didn't exist or that we keept quiet or that they never had to hear such confronting names mentioned, then it seems quite essential to me that the names ARE important. One must always speak to one's audience and couch the message in terms understood by them. "Gay" and "Lesbian" MUST appear in the name of our event. I'm open to the suggestion of including other names (I don't think it's necessary, but, hey, I acknowledge that I don't know everything), but I am NOT open to dropping these names altogether.
Cakeboy - Tue 17 Dec 2002 10:16:32

I notice you didn't try to argue a case for queer-specific identity inclusion?
It's actually a nightmare to try and do it. If you're not talking about B&T, "Queer" is just another "better", "superior" "politically correct" way of saying gay or lesbian.

It just shows how mindbogglingly crazy the whole thing gets.
Keep It Simple - Tue 17 Dec 2002 10:46:36

The stuff some of you come out with is just psycho babble that holds little relevance to anyone but you and your small group of militant and hate filled friends. Get out and talk to some young people if you need any idea of just how out of touch you are.

Talk about the victim turned persecutor. Your soul will never be calmed with so much hatred and intolerance running through your veins. You have a chance to heal, but instead you choose to continue the hurt and suffering, for both you and others.

Will this hate you aim at innocent others ever make up for the harm you have received? No, because it doesn’t work that way. You are the one who has the power to change how you feel. This cannot be gained by oppressing and hating others.
A BTQ person - Tue 17 Dec 2002 12:53:20

And as I recall the mainstream media (excluding official broadcast) has always refered to it as the Gay MardiGras anyway, and probably still will no matter what we call it... ;-)
Zakalwe - Tue 17 Dec 2002 13:47:39

If someone wanted to hold a specifically gay/lesbian event on March 1 they'd probably cream it. And NMG wouldn't be around to talk about anything to anyone other than it's creditors.

To a BTQ person. Intolerance in this area isn't confined to gays and lesbians and the issue that's angered people is, rightly or wrongly, a perception of their exclusion, not the inclusion of others.
A person person - Tue 17 Dec 2002 14:05:35

Well not if you're a bisexual who has a same sex partner. Can you see how the equal rights thing would be just as hard fought by bisexuals in that instance? Just as there are bisexuals in opposite sex relationships there are bisexuals in same sex relationships. They're still ID-ing as bisexual in both cases. It's not a cop out. Do you have a choice who you fall in love with?

"Gay as Gay can be" also says "...due to the fact that gay men ... lost out at parties and the festival eg the loss of sex at parties, "

Loss of sex at parties? The lesbians are to blame for this? Please, feel free to tell me that bit of history. Sounds remarkable. I wonder what parties this relates to as I've seen lots of sex at the ones I've been to. Must be hard walking about with that huge chip on your shoulder.

I quite like the simplicity of "Mardi Gras - Anthing But Straight"
One Of Those - Tue 17 Dec 2002 14:08:01

If our defence of our difference offends I am sorry but this does matter to the majority of gay men and lesbians. Why don't you build you own event and celebration given that BTQs have such different agendas and meanings to ours. That at least is very clear.

As for your argument that implying that we "move on" to the love everyone inclusion world overtly belies how little your understand the place of homosexuals in the world and how different you are to us!!

I challenge you go and make an event for BTQs and enjoy the absolute power you will feel when you walk into that event and know it yours and that you will be completely with your kind...you can even include straights if you want.

When you do that I will totally respect your event and not attend at all, even if it is deemed the most fantastic experience ever and media coverage is given that it is yours and will have special meaning to BTQ people and their sexual and cultural expectations and practices.
Leave us to ours!! - Tue 17 Dec 2002 14:29:45

We've been voicing our opinions since before you were born! It's you that needs to catch up with us.

As for sad: c'mon, girl. Lighten up.

As for hate: oh yeah. When was the last time someone yelled 'hey, die, you bloody f'n BTQ Person' at you from the window of a Kingswood?

Let's get real. This nonsense is about names, not anything else.
- Tue 17 Dec 2002 15:05:46

Well, in the spirit of empirical research, I asked a few young homosexuals who attend university and who associated with other young homosexuals and, indeed, who are involved with youth politics, if this was true. The answer? I was told that only a minority of young homosexuals identify as "queer". The vast majority identify as "gay" or "lesbian".

I'm not criticising or attacking those who identify as "queer", I'm merely pointing out that those who suggest that the youth of today are no longer G+L, but rather are "queer", may be promoting their own world view....and maybe reality is a little different.
The Empirical Inquisitor - Tue 17 Dec 2002 15:07:21

If however you replace your same sex partner with a partner of the opposite sex, you will be living as a heterosexual and enjoying all the privileges of heterosexuality - whatever you choose to call yourself.
- Tue 17 Dec 2002 16:55:51

I understand the pain this causes, I have received much worse homophobia then just name calling. But I am not to blame, and blaming me and hating me will not stop homophobia in society.

What might help stop homophobia in society is that the true story about homosexual desire is told. Can you imagine if everyone who is same-sex attracted in some way, was able to come out and declare it! Could you imagine just how many people that would be, and what that would say about human sexuality. Can you not see this benefiting gay and lesbian people?

May be I have got it all wrong, may be you do not want to create a society where homosexuality is no longer oppressed? May be you want to stay the victim, because you have got so used to that position? May be you just want to hate everything that is not like you, because that is how you feel others have treated you? May be you are just cruel and selfish and have little regard for the many same-sex attracted people who are still suffering in silence in our towns and suburbs?
A BTQ person. - Tue 17 Dec 2002 17:35:22

Why did we ever move away from there?

I say we have a 1978 "GAY MG"!!!1
- Tue 17 Dec 2002 17:59:35

This is purely a scare mongering campaign led by a few bi, trannie and queer phobes.
- Tue 17 Dec 2002 18:18:16

Homophobia is Homophobia I believe it has nothing to do with bisexual or queer. If we adopt your principle then bisexuals and queers are also straight.

It gets very confusing...doesn't it.
- Tue 17 Dec 2002 18:41:33

Real issues: I've also been wondering at the silence of debate about the Games loss but I've been reminded, by someone much wiser than I, of that crucial difference: people care so very deeply about Mardi Gras; but while the Games were fabulous the event didn't engage so many people on the same level (with all due respect). The debt, which will no doubt go higher as invoices come in, is going to have a huge effect on businesses crucial to future Mardi Gras and other event organisers: medium to small outfits, like security guards, staging equipment and lighting companies, DJs, not to mention half the queer writers and perfomers in the country. It will hurt, and there are many more lessons to be learned from it and the SGLMG collapse. We do need to keep talking about that stuff, too.
Kelly - Tue 17 Dec 2002 18:43:32

May be you should go talk to older people...since we are an aging population, what will MG be in 10, 20 or 30 years from now if you piss us off. This may be a reason why dance parties are starting to prove less popular as entertainment.
Number 4 - Tue 17 Dec 2002 18:45:41

A constitution can be changed...so I wouldn't focus too much on what is presented before the community at the forums.
- Tue 17 Dec 2002 18:47:24

Are be back to that old rumour mill that ACON is running the show, or is it just a concidence.

Did the other members of PALQ know about the change, or is NMG running the ship without consulting the few members it has?
- Tue 17 Dec 2002 18:50:07

but the title IS important and that's what needs to be focussed on. something that is inclusive and that people feel represents them.

i for one (along with alot of others) do not feel represented by "queer" but i understand that alot of btq's aren't represented by G+L MG. so the solution seems to be sydney MG or G(1978)MG.

As for the people saying that constitutions can be changed, that is true - but it's difficult. 75% of the membership has to agree to the change. it's much easier to find something we alll like nowand stick with it.

personally i think the NMG board didn't want to be accused of giving in to either side (ie. G+L or Q) so they just took the middle road and left the community to fight it out amongst ourselves. perhaps that was the best moove on their party
- Tue 17 Dec 2002 20:00:11

So if I am having a relationship with someone of the same-sex and someone of the opposite sex at the sametime, I am 50% homosexual and 50% heterosexual. But I live with the same-sex partner, so spend more time with them, I guess that really then means I am 75% homosexual and 25% heterosexual. But in reality I am at least 50% of the time not with either partner, so I guess I am 50% non-sexual, 37.5% homosexual and 12.5% heterosexual.

If we are to go by the logic that your partner determines your sexuality, then all you single people out there are non-sexual beings. Sorry about that, but that seems to be the rules according to Tue 17 Dec 2002 16:55:51
divided into nice little boxes - Tue 17 Dec 2002 20:46:18

You are making some assumptions about the NMG Board's decision! Was it unanimous? Was there dissent? Did anyone abstain? Did anyone vote against?

Also, I have to say, in all honesty, that I've asked most of my G+L friends what they thing of this issue. They are all unhappy with it. It is NOT vocal minority who are concerned about this!
- Tue 17 Dec 2002 21:40:49

To suggest that this is only about the "scare-mongering" reaction of a small group of BTQ phobes is dishonest, insulting and way off the mark.

I know very few gay men or lesbian women who've ever actively fought against including BTQ in community events. Many haven't understood the depth of BTQ feeling about the importance of naming their inclusion but that's different to actively blocking and opposing.

It's been said before here; inclusion, no matter how desirable, can't be achieved on the back of perceived exclusion. The comments I've read from BTQ contributors here have tended, with some notable exceptions, to be less than constructive about addressing that concern.
A Person Person - Tue 17 Dec 2002 21:44:48

panther@pinkboard.com.au