Pinkboard's SGLMG Graffiti Wall 3

(This wall has been split from the previously monolithic wall.)

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Pinkboard: Mardi Gras 99 Parade and Party Graffiti Wall
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Mardi Gras Home Page

Copyright (C) Pinkboard, 1999. Not to be reproduced without permission.
Racism, sexism, libel and other offensiveness is not welcome.

Which Monica's are you talking about Techno?
Sun Feb 28 10:58:10 1999

The time has come for Mardi Gras to make a really potent political statement. What I am about to suggest may be mad, crack pot, off the wall and almost impossible to pull off, but I also think it could be radical, innovative, potent and confronting. I suggest (and someone else may have already floated this idea - if they have, please accept my acknowledgement) that Mardi Gras 2000 be almost entirely monochrome - floats, costumes, banners, flags - everything in black, white, silver shades of grey - with only the occasional dash of colour. I am sure the creativity exists within the community to make such a bold concept work. If every parade entrant could be persuaded to agree, it would be a powerful statement of community unity. What it would require is strong leadership from the Mardi Gras Board. I am interested in what others think.
lgalbraith@wr.com.au - Sun Feb 28 18:57:55 1999

lgalbraith, I agree that it would be a strong symbol of community unity. But I see two problems that stand in the way of making any statements like this. The first problem is that unity within the community is weak to say the least, bisexual people are excluded, looked down on and ignored. The second problem is that the current board has yet to show any leadership skills, but instead react to what *they think* will get them elected next year around.
Educate - Mon Mar 1 2:19:25 1999

Ooooh Goss!! RC was in the DJ booth talking to some guy on the floor in black (security guard?) while I was leaving the RHI. He was saying (very loudly) that this was his last party.
Hopeful - Mon Mar 1 12:12:55 1999

I loved being in the parade + big party - but where were the proud big Bears, Bi people, fab Queer Feral Fairys, and lovely Leather Pride people in the TV broadcast? And why did the announcers talk about drugs(mentioning prescription drugs by brandname on at least two occassions, dropping in a reference to xtc as some folks threw paper plates around "looks like they are on Ekkies"? Are we leaving the impression that we are just bitchy druggies, drag queens, nude fellas and bared young dikey breasts in the minds of the straights? Or will they remember the good parts at the start of the program - our elder gay men, pflag, Queer Collaboration's tellytubbies, b.g.f. , older dykes on bikes, Pride, the lovely asian princesses from the islands (with their mothers and children on the float with them!!) Seemed to me that the good community stuff about Mardi Gras was all on at the start. Yes, V.I.P. Bikini Babes are funny great fun - but that is not the inclusive face of Gay + Lesbian Sydney, now is it? Lighter notes: WonderWoman's great theme song number was cut? - this was really too bad! She was so fab and deserved more! I liked the cute golden trophy dudes too - so why didnt the part where they kiss go into the broadcast?! So near and yet so far - our video editors lost the nerve to be truely inclusive and revolutionary eh? Perhaps next time.... I dream on.
BiDyke - Mon Mar 1 12:20:59 1999

BiDyke - Why dream when you've got a full year to plan?
Mon Mar 1 15:28:10 1999

Why dream on? because we have such idiots controlling the telecast and the MardiGras organisation. dream on BiDyke, next year you may not even be invited to the parade - not gay enough for the organisation, not straight enough for television. Sounds like the whole issue is not yet dead. Wait until the AGM.
Still Furious - Mon Mar 1 19:34:49 1999

Dear larry galbraith. why on earth would you want to restrict the colour to black white and silver...how boring..wouldn't need to have a colour telly of course..I think that is a dumb idea, sounds more like a funeral than a parade where the raibow is our symbol
colour my world - Mon Mar 1 20:53:05 1999

An endless harley procession - Yep, silver white black & grey.
Mon Mar 1 21:47:48 1999

colour my world - You're right. Channel Ten, who scores a lot of advertising revenue out the parade (none of which comes back to Mardi Gras or the gay and lesbian community) would be mighty pissed off. So would all the sponsors. And all those people out there who think that all we're good for is endless colour and movement, colour and movement, colour and movement.
Time to see things in black and white - Mon Mar 1 23:40:52 1999

It would also reflect the purely Black & White stance of the Mardi Gras organisation.
Waiting for the EGM - Tue Mar 2 8:09:45 1999

Happy Eckie Tuesday, everyone!!!!!!!
Tue Mar 2 10:30:43 1999

BiDyke - your point about the groups who were missed out on the TV broadcast illustrates nice & clearly that the current management of Mardi Gras don't care too much whether the "Equality in Diversity" theme is reflected or not. They don't seem to like diversity at all ... ...
LK - Tue Mar 2 17:26:26 1999

Why not just have the parade all in black? The colour of sorrow and death...unless it's skin that is
mono - Tue Mar 2 18:00:21 1999

Thanks MG for a memorable night - both good and better. Thanks for the political Channel 10 coverage (until it became a running Ad for their shows). Only complaint is originality. Thanks Gary for your many years of service but new talent and ideas are now needed for the 21st century. I hope that MG can still afford a Rolex for you or did you get that in kick-backs for Kylie/Danii/Jimmy? Singing a dead gay icons song was pure bad taste - thank god for Marcia and the community dancers - saved your ass Gary (or should I say Cobden Inc.)
That was nasty - Tue Mar 2 19:02:03 1999

Why was the Bi Groups start position mysteriously missing for the parade? Our number was 190, the numbers went from 189 straight to 191, missing 190! And due to trucks and floats taking up all the space, we were forced to wait in a totally different area. Whether this was done intentionally or not the result was to create confusion for people attempting to join the group and hence we are quite concerned about how many people did not find our group, and so lost their chance to march proudly under the bisexual banner. We are especially concerned for those bi people who were joining us for the first time, as they would of missed out on a symbol of being out and proud about their bisexual identity, just as the parade is to gay, lesbian and transgender people. Why does this sort of thing always happen to us???
Educate - Tue Mar 2 20:20:30 1999

actually, I hate to be pedantic, but it's 'would H A V E missed out'. But I agree it's rather suspicious under the circumstances.
Wed Mar 3 0:46:40 1999

I think the issues surrounding the Parade and PArty and Bisexuals are all intertwined. What's good for the Cobdens and the leesons and those who provide services for VIP Party tickets is all that's important.
Prove me wrong - Wed Mar 3 19:34:41 1999

I certainly hope that the AGM votes that MG Music be disbanded as a sad and sorry experiment in self-promotion which had no membership consultation.
disgusted member - Wed Mar 3 20:18:43 1999

How can people be so pathetic and shallow that they are happy to openly and actively discriminate against bisexuals, just so they can please some Biphobes (Cobden, Leeson, McLachlan) and insure they continue to get VIP party tickets! It's just a party, I would of thought that human rights and equality come well before VIP party tickets? My estimation in human kind is getting to its all time low.
Educate - Wed Mar 3 20:19:40 1999

VIP of course stands for Vapid Insipid Parasites.
It's acronimic! - Wed Mar 3 22:53:47 1999

Anyone have reliable numbers on ticket sales for the home party???
really wondering - Thu Mar 4 0:23:33 1999

really wondering (and everyone else) - Ask Davey LcLachlan Murdoch yourself. He's guest speaker at the next Gay and Lesbian Business Association dinner - Furama Hotel, 28 Albion St, Surry Hills. Phone 9552 2000 to book. you don't have to be in business, or a member of the association to attend.
Thu Mar 4 0:29:22 1999

The add for the Business Association dinner says Davey boy has been a practicing solicitor for 20 years. Geeze, you'd think after all that practice he'd be a *real* lawyer - you know, like Dickie Cobden QC - and not just a jumped up glorified insurance clerk.
Thu Mar 4 0:32:21 1999

Hey! I thought solicitors instructed barristers, not the other way around!
Thu Mar 4 0:33:53 1999

Just saw a rerun of Stonewall on the A B C, ge we really have moved away from the fire and passion that started this whole mardi gras thing. I say move Mardi gras back to the night Judy died and the Stonewally riot, I mean we don't move the dates of other great events do we just cause they don't fit in with our seasonal party schedule ! Imagine that...oh it's just too hot at Xmas, let's move it to June...Just thirty years ago, we have come a long way, and unfortunately fell off the other side. Why don't they play that fabulous music anymore..loved the slow dancing ! The movie really made me think that somehow the oppression brought everyone together and trannie, dykes and poofs, bi's et al all stood together. Today we are sucking up to cops/establishment and chasing a $ sign, that is why mardi gras is in such a mess. Although the 60's seem repressed and hard for "homosexuals", they had a fire, passion and a feeling of solidarity that is sadly lacking in todays "Stonewall rememberance celebration" Maybe because "gay and lesbian" has become a market it has lost it's passion and fire and just become another "business", a sideshow...Mardi gras is just another corporation with the same games being played as any other dog eat dog business. Assimilating gays, lesbians and Mardi gras into the mainstream has washed it out...may as well all wear grey next year as the message had been diluted and homogenised beyond recognition. I don't want "equal rights" with heterosexuals in their f*cked up society, I am just playing their games them, I want a whole new rule book.
La Miranda fan - Thu Mar 4 1:56:58 1999

So disassimilate yourself. Mardi Gras is not the be all and end all you know.
Thu Mar 4 2:35:43 1999

To the person publicising the S G L B A dinner with the Mardi Gras President - I think your bitchy attack on David McLachlan is unnecessary and unhelpful. It doesn't progress the debate one bit. Play the ball, not the man. Besides, I happen to know that David works very hard as a lawyer. Not everyone can be a courtroom high flyer. The insurance industry needs lawyers too, particularly those with David's proven and demonstrable skills. Otherwise the insurance companies would be paying out to every accident victim that comes along claiming they are eligible for compensation.
Thu Mar 4 7:11:54 1999

I'm bored now the Festival is over. Can someone hurry up and organise an MG Community Forum? I don't care what the topic is. I'm happy to do Strategic Planning again. But bisexuals issue would be kinda fun. Even a good old Parade and Party forum would do.
Nothing better to do - Thu Mar 4 9:59:15 1999

Sad to hear today about Dusty Springfield's death. She was a genuine gay and lesbian entertainment icon. Of course, because she was openly bisexual, she would've been denied membership of Mardi Gras by Fuhrer McLachlan and his yes-people.
Thu Mar 4 10:09:32 1999

Thinking about Dusty Springfield.... Have Bi women been excluded from MG membership or has it just been politically prominent bi men? Is it Ok to be a gay Icon if your a bi woman?
bibaby - Thu Mar 4 12:03:23 1999

Techowarrior: I'm still wanting to know which Monicas you were talking about on Saturday. (There were two Monica entries.)
I'd like to know - Thu Mar 4 12:07:13 1999

La Miranda fan - You must be very, very young. Back in September, October 1980 (that's right! almost 19 years ago) there was a major debate in the gay community (it hadn't gone coalitionist then) about moving Mardi Gras from June and winter to February and summer. The debate was also whether Mardi Gras was primarily a gay rights demonstration or a "celebration of lifestyle". After three bitter, rowdy, angry public meetings Summer and the "celebration of lifestyle" won. And of course Mardi Gras has never looked back. Stonewall Week, and the Stonewall Day march meanwhile staggered on for a couple of years, before dying out through lack of interest. Attempts to revive it (most recently by Pride) have largely failed. Richard Cobden and others associated with Mardi Gras did their damndest to kill it off. Perhaps we should wonder why.
Thu Mar 4 13:16:19 1999

What do you mean Dusty Springfield was an open bisexual...she was a lesbian, excuse me, and a very good friend of the empress. Lesbians always have to say they are "bi" to keep the male audience interested, fact is she was a dyke, through and through.
insideinfo - Thu Mar 4 16:07:52 1999

Insideinfo - She is barely dead and all you think about is claiming her for your cause. Lets just say Dusty was a talanted and wonderful *person* and leave it at that. By the way, why is it so offensive to you that she be known as a bisexual? After all she is the one who gave her self that identity to the public, so the fact remains, Mardi Gras would not give her membership.
Thu Mar 4 18:40:27 1999

As I write Dame Cindy Pastel is performing a tribute to Dusty Springfield on the steps in front of the Perth Institute of Contemporary Arts to a saddened an appreciative crowd. "I wander the streets and the gay crowded places, Trying to forget you, but somehow it seems My thoughts ever stray to our last sweet embraces, Over the sea on the the island of dreams" (The Spingfields - Tom & Dusty)
Thu Mar 4 18:54:23 1999

bibaby, gender does not matter nor is the decision to reject directed only at politically prominent bisexual people. We have had many reports of people being refused membership solely on the grounds of a bisexual identity, the reason these bi men have got so much attention is that they have been involved with the gay and lesbian community for many years and hence have many friends and support, these people also made noise instead of just accepting the rejection like many before them have.
Educate - Thu Mar 4 19:24:47 1999

Man, the amount of abuse on this wall is kind of sickening. Can't you be passionate about Mardi Gras without throwing shit at each other. It only seems to prove that we a commmunity made up of very damaged people. I feel the need, mostly out of loyalty, to make a few passing comments without allowing myself to be drawn in to this pointless and dangerous debate. I have been a personal friend of Cobden and Leeson for some years now. Both incredibly bright, sometimes hard to understand (aren't we all), creative, eccentric, totally devoted to the future of Mardi Gras and often generous to a fault in the time and effort they give to it for the crap that they get in return. I am stunned at the ridiculous comments made presuming their opinions and pretending to know their behaviour. I doubt it would be said to their faces. To all who sit on their keyboards typing anonymous slander about my friends, you may notice something. Richard and Gary rarely respond to these pages. Why? Because they're out there working their arses off for an organisation thet thay believe in. You don't like what they do? That's ok. But until you put at a tenth of the hours they do, maybe you'd be better off visiting a porn site and jerking off. At least you'd be useful to yourself.
Close this site before it swallows us all. - Fri Mar 5 11:46:40 1999

I'm glad the graffiti boards are anonymous - "Close this site..." takes advantage of that fact too, to say what she/he really feels without fear or favour. Yes, the debate is often out there and reflects a alot of personal damage, but there are a lot of worthwhile, constructive things said too. And it helps people feel like they can make a contribution, and exercise some bit of control over a small part of their world...
fastlove - Fri Mar 5 15:19:35 1999

"close this..." - Yes Cobden, Leeson, McLachlan work very hard, that I'm sure most people do not question, it is what they are working hard towards that is the problem. You are upset because of what people are saying about your friends, did you also take the time to read what is being said by people such as myself (Educate), 78er, fastlove and others? If you did I'm sure you wouldn't be calling for this board to be closed, also may be you should pass some of what I've said onto your friends, as they will not talk to me, as I'm bisexual and do not exist. You see not all of us have friends in such "high" places, so we end up being ignored, discriminated against and silenced, at least with this message board I have an opportunity for people to hear what I have to say.
Educate - Fri Mar 5 16:28:24 1999

Close this site before it swallows us all. - Richard Cobden's contribution to Mardi Gras - *during the time he was a Board member* was undeniably significant. He and Susan Harben, working together, arguably provided the best leadership Mardi Gras has had in a long, long time.
Fri Mar 5 16:50:31 1999

The challenges they faced were among the most difficult and complex ever faced by any Board, and the met them with grit, determination, intellect and ultimately won out. Many of the initiatives they took helped guarantee the future of Mardi Gras. To name just one - the decision to abolish the parade entry fee, and subsitute a refundable deposit was probably the single most important factor in opening up the parade and encouraging much greater community participation.
Fri Mar 5 16:52:30 1999

All this makes Richard's behaviour, since he formally left the Board, rather tragic. The fact that he did so much doesn't give him or those associated with him a licence to whatever he likes. Nor does it give him ownership of Mardi Gras. All it does, is cause others to question what motivates him, and what really motivated him in the past.
Fri Mar 5 16:55:31 1999

There is an old philosophy about ex-presidents, board members etc. They should fade away gracefully taking with them the respect they have earnt, or not earnt, as the case may be. The new blood that is left behind should have been adequately trained in the normal operations and left to their own devices regarding creativity etc. thus allowing new images of events to appear and be developed. If this is not the case, then the previous Presidents and Board Members have not done their job. The problem with volunteer work is that everyone eventually burns out - all organisations know this and the clever one's prepare by training their 'junior' talent early. This is the real problem at MG - the 'young' talent is not being given the necessary training hence, when they get into 'power', they stuff it up. Fair Day was a classic example of inexperience in handling a very well organised and established charity correctly, firmly and politely. Therefore, there was serious fall-out over the issue. This was certainly also evident around the Parade and the notification of change of route etc. Neither of the 'younger' (meaning their time on the Board/Committees) Board members involved did anything really wrong, they just hadn't been trained adequately enough to ensure that little problems did not become huge ones, leading to aggression between various organisations. So much of MG's operations are in the head of a few staff members who will not relay this information for fear of losing control. This paranoia should be addressed and a plan put in place for adequate training of Board members. This was, in essence, a very important message that rang out loudly from the Fletcher Report into the Audit 'affair'. The GM was criticised strongly for not ensuring that newer Board members were trained fully in their 'job'. I feel this extends to the older Board members too. Leading by good example is a wonderful way to pass on our community's treasures and this, unfortunately, has been difficult with various older community members making damn right bloody idiots of themselves publicly. It is now that MG, after 21 years on June 24th, must show it has actually learnt something over the years. I read this Board and notice the writings of a 78er, Educate, Techno, etc. with interest. We are all saying the same thing really - we want a community where consultation, love and trust all go hand-in-hand with political prominence and inclusiveness of like minded people under a loose banner of 'queer' or whatever you wish to call it. Let's not necessarily have another 'shit fight' at the AGM - the opportunity is there over the next 3-4 months for the Board to admit mistakes and show true leadership through humility. This will involve the same attitude coming from our very well paid 'servants' in the Fortress - which might be a little harder to achieve. Time for a philisophical change - David, you and your very warm and caring team, through some control tactics over paranoid staff members, can regain the initiative for the betterment of out community into the 21st Century. I dearly hope that, once again, I am not being too idiolistic - this is achievable, but only through strong leadership and a belief in what is right - not what the popular masses tell you is right. Being a good and well-remembered and respected leader is not about being popular - it is about being effectual is instrumenting change that benefits all stakeholders to some degree or another. Happy 21st guys and girls - may we work together to deserve to be as organised as we are now, in another 21 Years.
Homer - Fri Mar 5 19:00:34 1999

God Bless Dusty - may she stay in our memory forever!
Fri Mar 5 19:05:01 1999

Homer - No amount of training, preparation, education, can overcome David McLachlan's inadequacies, incompetence or mediocrity. He is what he is - a pathetic unjustifiably arrogant marrionette under the total control of his masters. And he's wooden to boot. As much as we may wish upon a star, no blue fairy is gonna come along and turn that puppet into a real live leader.
Carlo Collodi - Fri Mar 5 21:59:18 1999

Homer - You don't want another shit fight at the AGM? What are you proposing? The current Board (plus those of David's mates hand picked to replace retiring board members) be declared re-elected with acclamation. You're suggesting we do away with elections? What's your sirname? Simpson?
Sat Mar 6 1:23:54 1999

I�ve read all the postings on this board from the beginning and I congratulate panther on setting up the wall. It�s great to read other views on issues that interest me, as well as to read views on other unfamiliar issues. I, too, think this year�s AGM would be a great opportunity for �head clearing� on issues, policies and future direction. I look forward to reading the Draft Strategic Plan due later this month (see �SGLMG Strategic Planning Information Sheet January 1999�). I�d like to revisit the issue of membership in the meantime. SGLMG has this characteristic paradox of having a membership base (currently 8,000, I believe) yet at the same time being regarded as an organisation that at various times speaks for or represents the larger gay and lesbian community (howsoever defined). Indeed, Fastlove (posted Feb. 11) said SGLMG should be an umbrella organisation; 78�er (posted Feb. 11) said that was what it was meant to be so from the beginning. SGLMG�s broader representative role is implicitly accepted by Educate so you don�t hate (posted Feb. 11) when he writes that SGLMG doesn�t represent the youth adequately. Question: who is SGLMG�s constituency? Is it the 8,000 members, or is it more than that? Craig Johnston (p.244 Mardi Gras True Stories from lock up to frock up) writes that the parade, not the parties, is the core of SGLMG and that Mardi Gras would not exist without the parade. As we all know, the parade is not restricted to members. Yet, I agree with 82�er (posted Feb. 9) when he wrote that most people become members to go to the parties. What is happening here? IMO, SGLMG has evolved into a dichotomous organisation, one part community representative, the other party-related commercial business. The tensions between these two parts can only increase. Market place pressures on SGLMG are incompatible with the membership of a community organisation unless that organisation restructures itself to allow the business part to function as a business, while the other part concentrates on being a better community organisation. I note that Fastlove (posted Feb. 11) raised the issue of a changed membership base. While I don�t agree with that particular proposal, it raises important questions: who are the members of SGLMG? How long have they been members? What is the drop-off rate and why do they cease being members? Why isn�t the membership larger? Does the membership represent the community in general or only party goers? If SGLMG speaks for the community, how valid are the opinions of the membership in deciding SGLMG representative views?
mcman@ozemail.com.au - Sat Mar 6 13:18:17 1999

Some reliable figures from Home have just arrived from an impecable source. Home was 300 people down on their usual Saturday night admissions. There were only 800 punters at 1 am when they finally decided to open the other rooms. Mardi Gras guarranteed them a sell out, so I wonder what the deal was between the two organisations and will Mardi Gras members have to contribute to a loss??? It looks like this exercise was an expensive way to try to hobble Dawn and the Luncheon club.
I just love our current community spirit - Sat Mar 6 15:41:06 1999

mcman, I believe it is important for any community organisation to encourage participation from the different sub-groups that it represents. Currently we have an organisation that should and does represent the whole community to those outside our community, but deliberately excludes some and discourages others. This can only be seen as a method to push their own personal agenda (a gender) while on the back of the whole community. Otherwise Mardi Gras should be pushing hard for involvement from each of the sub-groups, I also believe that a community organisation that doesn't change to meet the needs of its community while encouraging representation from all those it represents is doomed for mediocrity and eventually shrinkage. Or in Mardi Gras' case a membership base of people whose only priority is to party, I'm quite sure its mission statement suggests something other. I think we need to be carefull to suggest that the membership of Mardi Gras, most of which only want party tickets, are the people Mardi Gras should be representing. For example a bisexual activist with a track record of fighting for Gay and Lesbian rights cannot even be a member, while many others such as the queer youth (Queer Collabrations) who have organised national conferences are discourage from getting involved and feel unwelcome dispite all they have done. Something is seriously wrong when those who have so much to offer our premier (Umbrella) community organisation are not joining or are unable to join.
Educate. - Sat Mar 6 15:46:20 1999

Mcman makes an interestng point about the internal struggle in Mardi Gras between commercial forces & community power. Is the recent campaign to join up lesbian members an attempt to become a more representative community organisation or a search for new markets ? Is the increasingly queer Festival an attempt to include the young queers or an attempt to get reviews for being "groundbreaking" ? Does Mardi Gras even know itself ?
LK - Sat Mar 6 15:52:40 1999

Mcman makes the best points I have yet come across here. Unfortunately all the people now making substantial profits from Mardi Gras, some of them very big players indeed, are not going to allow their long term objectives to be blocked. And I'm not talking about the people who are facilitating this within the organisation.
Everlasting Cynic - Sat Mar 6 18:47:17 1999

LK, interesting points, is it a money making company or a community organisation? I tend to think if it was a community organisation they would be encouraging others such as the queer youth to get involved in more then the occasional art event, but would be seeking their advice and involvement on all levels. If it is a money making company then I suspect they would be doing their best to keep the power with a few, while giving lip service to others so that they can gain control over emerging markets.
Educate - Sat Mar 6 21:44:37 1999

Perhaps if we can make bisexuals a clearly definible market, Mardi Gras will seek us to join. That's it! We will make bisexuality trendy, and those that are bisexual will be reknowned for ???? ,that way we will earn equality and acceptance because we can be directly marketed to. Any ideas on what unique qualities bisexuals have that Mardi Gras can exploit for pink dollar power?
Educate - Sat Mar 6 22:33:26 1999

I just love our community spirit - another 'Home' report - 2am 500 people, (maybe 300 left between 1 - 2 to go to Rainbow party) very straight, very friendly and not a Drag Queen in site. Jimmy could be seen on screen but sound did not work.
Left Wondering - Sun Mar 7 0:18:40 1999

does anyone know bottom line from rainbow party for luncheon club?
Sun Mar 7 10:47:31 1999

(This not the place to talk about "home" but nothing is happening on the right board.) Left Wondering - "Jimmy could be seen on screen but sound did not work". The channel 10 broadcast did the same thing to David McL. Just a talking head. (One would think that given 20+ hours, they could have got that right.) As I've sworn not to get personal I'll stop now.
Munro - Sun Mar 7 22:32:21 1999

Davey McL wasn't just a talking head. He was a *boring* talking head.
It's outwageous! - Mon Mar 8 7:48:50 1999

Stop being so bloody personal. Play the issue not the man.
EC - Mon Mar 8 17:10:35 1999

The issue is that David McLachlan is failing to provide inspiring, effective, honest and democratic leadership to Mardi Gras. If he was boring on the Mardi Gras telecast it was yet another manifestation of this fact.
Mon Mar 8 17:33:27 1999

Danni scam! Danni scam! Dannii scam!!
Mon Mar 8 20:24:49 1999

Hands up all those who watched the telecast and saw everyone's favourite Mardi Gras star - Dannii Minogue - dancing in the street with the Dannii marching drags?
Mon Mar 8 20:25:49 1999

You didn't think she marched with the whole parade the whole length, did you?
Mon Mar 8 20:26:19 1999

If so, you're wrong. Ten minutes after her turn for the TV cameras, she was back up in the VIP viewing room, snogging it with all the VIPs.
Mon Mar 8 20:27:52 1999

So much for Dannii's genuine commitment to Mardi Gras!
Mon Mar 8 20:28:17 1999

No one ever said Dannii was marching with the drags. She was sitting outside the VIP viewing room on the footpath for a lot of the parade.
Mon Mar 8 20:51:09 1999

Dannii is gone now, let's get on with making mg 2000 all the things we want it !
Mon Mar 8 21:45:18 1999

Reply to Educate (posted Mar. 6). SGLMG�s Commitment Statement is actually broader than encouraging �participation from the subgroups that it represents�. It refers to the �diverse lesbian and gay communities of Sydney� as a �combined community� and states that SGLMG is �committed to serving our community�. My reading of the Statement is that SGLMG is a facilitator of individual, group and community expression, rather than a promoter. The difference is significant because of your view that SGLMG should be �pushing hard for involvement from each of the sub-groups�. I�m not sure that this is actually SGLMG�s role. I don�t take it for granted that everyone in the community or even each member necessarily wants to be actively involved in Mardi Gras. I agree with you that SGLMG shouldn�t represent only the interests of party-goers. However, so long as the primary draw card of membership is access to party tickets, SGLMG�s electorate is a narrowly focused one whose concerns don�t necessarily mirror the broader community�s. Hence, my point was that the membership is not large enough or broad enough for its decisions to be seen as being the expression of the community in general. If this is true, then what possible interest could a constituency of party goers have in issues of broad democratic community participation? In other words, so long as the party was good, all else is forgiven and forgotten.
mcman@ozemail.com.au - Mon Mar 8 23:45:28 1999

Reply to Educate (posted Mar. 6) re �is it a money making company or a community organisation�. As I see it, this is now the box of tinder waiting for the spark. Commercially, SGLMG is now seeing doors open because of the scale of its people watching, people spending in the month of February. Further, advertisers are seeing the potential for all year round customer loyalty from a market with above average household income and discretionary spending. The pink dollar requires advertisers to be sensitive in their marketing but it offers also the vicarious benefit of straight customers that follow in the wake of spending behaviour initiated by the gay community. None of this would have come to pass, however, were it not for one singular important fact: that SGLMG do what they do very well indeed. So well in fact that SGLMG could easily set up a variety of subsidiary companies such as record company, party management, publicity, publishing, marketing, to name a few. I wouldn�t have a problem with that at all. Why? Because it�s a logical flow on from SGLMG�s Commitment Statement, which is in the Memorandum of Association, article 2 (a) as well as article 2 (d): �We seek to enable individuals and groups within our community to discover, express and develop their artistic, cultural and political skills and potential......We will achieve these objectives by:...Providing resources and opportunities for the development of artistic, cultural and political skills and potential in individuals and groups in our community.....(and by doing) anything that is incidental or conducive to achieving the objects set out in paragraph (a).� Each company would provide services to SGLMG and could trade the rest of the year however it saw fit, providing year-round employment opportunities to gay staff and, if it was good enough, generating profits for SGLMG. (BTW, no subsidiary company would carry the name of SGLMG in its operation title because I believe that would threaten the volunteer activism of SGLMG, the parent itself.) By separating the commercial activities from the parent, SGLMG could concentrate on its community representative role, and listen more actively to their voices instead of being increasingly distracted by the seductive siren calls of straight commerce.
mcman@ozemail.com.au - Tue Mar 9 0:44:55 1999

mcman (8/3/99), I'm happy to see that Mardi Gras' commitment statement is broader then what I stated, put my definition down to clumsy English. I would however like to see Bisexual and Transgender added, as apparently the statement �diverse lesbian and gay communities of Sydney� is not broad enough for Bisexuals to be allowed membership. The reason I believe Mardi Gras should be encouraging involvement and promoting those under-represented is because no one is really free while people in their community are oppressed, I'm assuming that is the reason Black, White and Pink has come about. Bisexuals are another group that are a part of the �diverse lesbian and gay communities of Sydney�. I'd also state that while some Gay and Lesbian people can *passionately* argue over what beer is served at the party, what DJ will be spinning records and the too many straights issue, Bisexual identified people are not even included in the anti-discrimination laws. I would like to get to the stage where some people within the Bisexual community can complain about such petty things, but that will not happen while we are so oppressed, we are not even able to become members of an organisation we have been involved in from the beginning. Biphobia within the Gay and Lesbian community is a real serious issue (I could tell you horror stories), and I do not see any harm in attempting to address this form of discrimination just as racism with in the Gay and Lesbian community is being tackled now.
Educate - Tue Mar 9 10:33:00 1999

mcman (9/3/99) As far as the Bisexual community is concerned this is a raging fire out of control! My politics are definitely not far left and I can see the need for money and what it has to offer. But when you have a so called community organisation, taking on other organisations like PRIDE, Luncheon Club and BGF like they are competition, something is seriously wrong. Trust me I know all about how a successful corporation breaks into new markets and destroys competitors, and for a community organisation to act this way with our culture is insidious. I'd prefer Mardi Gras not to be so finically successful if it means it needs to destroy or hamper other group that are also adding to the community. Sure my main reason is because bisexuals are not being included, perhaps if I were a Anglo middle class Gay man I might have a different opinion, as Mardi Gras would be working purely to my advantage.
Educate - Tue Mar 9 10:53:16 1999

mcman, in regards to Mardi Gras setting up companies that will offer employment (jobs), will these jobs only be offered to people within the "community"? In other words will the people have to be Gay, Lesbian or Transgender to be allowed to work for these companies? You see, how can we go about asking for equal rights in the work force while freely discriminating against others in a Mardi Gras company run work place? If there was not sexuality based employment in these companies then I would be open to your idea. The problem I feel is that many people have moved well beyond wanting equality, they now want to be superior, so they can in turn oppress (what is currently happening to Bisexuals is a very good example of this). A message to those people - don't you think it is time to get over the school yard beatings? If we don't learn to live together and respected each other for our difference what chance do we have?
Educate - Tue Mar 9 11:15:39 1999

I think it slightly ridiculous to say that Mardi Gras was "taking on" the Luncheon Club. The Home party was a silly idea and no doubt some people in MG had some wierd sort of revenge against DO'D in mind, but we have to remember that the pass-out system at MG party has been the lunchoen club's major source of income for the past few years. Carole-Anne was in contact with MG just before the party to confirm that and also informed MG that they had no guarenteed income from Rainbow at all. MG is just one of a bunch of childish tribes, not the worst, not the instigator (if that is at all relevent any more). Educate - I find your "plight" interesting. I've always thought of MG as being a celebration of Lesbian and Gay cultures in their many forms. Do you see Bisexuality as a seperate cultural expression with seperate issues or as having a link with MG through its partial expression of homoerotic desires? Someone who has both Greek and Spanish heritage would not go along to a Greek festival screaming for recognition of their Spanish blood. The point of such a festival the continual growth of Greek culture and as such you'd go in celebrating your "Greekness" at no detriment to your other heritage. Isn't Mardi Gras a celebration of same-sex desire? Isn't the whole bisexual cultural tradition clouded by a feeling that, given an open society, many of history's bisexuals might have been, for the most part, "gay"? I'm just throwing around some arguments which I hear all the time just to try and get my head around the issues but I'd be interested to hear what you had to say. Are you interested in MG "growing up" and being a celebration of sexual difference rather than of gay and lesbian culture? It seems like a big ask considering it was a culture born out of alienation from any hetero sexual expression and all its priveleges. I guess I'm saying I just don't get it!!!!!!!
What's up? - Tue Mar 9 16:04:15 1999

I just waded back and saw that the whole Rainbow party profits debate has already been had. I hope I haven't reignited it:-< I also wanted to say that Nova upstaged Dannii in her own show anyway.
What's up? - Tue Mar 9 16:13:15 1999

What's up? - I hope you don't think all bisexuals want to be gay, if given the chance, in an open society. Sexually speaking I love being bisexualsl and genuinly are attracted to both genders (and this can be at the same time!). I am bisexual and don't want to be homosexual, becuase then I would have to ditch one of my lovers becuase they would be the wrong gender. I could not discriminate against someone because they have the wrong genitals, wrong clothes yes! If anyone thinks that all bisexuals are taking an easy path hiding their homosexual side, try explaing to your straight co-workers and associates that you will be bringing both your lovers to the work chrissy party, oh and by the way, one is male and one is female! What I would like from MG is a mature approach to how sexuality is defined, an understanding of the issues that bisexuals face are the same as homosexuals, recognition of our contribution to the queer culture and an accountable process of membership acceptance/rejection by MG.
biBaby - Tue Mar 9 16:30:26 1999

Educate - thinking about how make ourselves highly marketable commodties to mardi gras..... well some of us use twice as many safe sex products as others in the same amount of time....
buyBaby - Tue Mar 9 16:43:19 1999

What's Up? - I've covered most of your questions in previous post to this message board, so if you go back through you have an opportunity to get all of your questions answered. Just search on Educate, also go through Pinkboard's SGLMG Graffiti Wall 1 as this debate has been raging for a while now. I will answer your question comparing Greek and Spanish heritage with this question, is there anything wrong with a group of people getting together to celebrate and be proud of their Greek and Spanish heritage together, in other words celebrating their Bi-racial heritage? Would this not be more fulfilling and truer to these peoples experiences and their identity? They could also celebrate their Spanish heritage alone by going to a bull fight or what ever, just like when I celebrate my homosex activity (not gayness, Gay is an identity) when I visit a sauna or a Gay bar. So yes Mardi Gras is a celebration of same sex desire, this is very different to saying Mardi Gras is a celebration of Gay and Lesbian identity. Bisexuals do have same sex desire, otherwise me and my boyfriend are having sex for some very strange reasons indeed! I don't think Mardi Gras should be a celebration of difference, that would be too broad a mission for it to remain potent, my point was directed at individuals who fear difference, and especially those that fear Bisexuals because we are different. I do however want Mardi Gras to grow up and move to the GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender) Model just as the following groups have done:- National Gay and Lesbian Task Force (ngltf), Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (p-flag, usa), The Human Rights Campaign (hrc), the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation(glaad)and the International Lesbian and Gay Association (ilga). Things are never black and white, thankfully the world is made up of diversity just like the many colours of the rainbow.
Educate - Tue Mar 9 17:19:11 1999

What's up - & et al - Reading through the posts I think some of the concepts have got a bit blurred. The real issue is that the Mardi Gras organisation has apparently decided that bisexuals are not really welcome in a "gay and lesbian" organisation. This has been made more than clear by the rejection of two bisexual men who have volumes of references and activities to support their joining MG. This has come as a bit of a shock to many bisexuals who thought that while they were not specifically mentioned, they were included in the general concept of the MG. Speaking as a bisexual who has worked in Oxford Street clubs for many years I'm really irritated that it appears that Mardi Gras feels that I should be grouped with heterosexuals. This is a group that I have little affinity with, rather than the gay and lesbian world in which I live. I would specifically like to call for MG to be representative of the wider group of queer sexuality. I do not believe that the MG organisation is really representative of it's constituency in it's biphobia.
BiDaddy - Tue Mar 9 17:44:45 1999

To overcome the Bi issue lets change to name of the org. to Sydney Gay Lesbian and Bi Mardi Gras. Try keeping some happy. There are probably more straight members of the organsiation than there are bisexual. Another alternative if the board will not recognise bisexuals is just say that you are gay or lesbian, how is the board to know what people are especially is the membership application is mailed. Thats how come there are so many straight members.
Young Gay And Proud - Tue Mar 9 18:13:24 1999

Young Gay and Proud, Not quite sure that many share your idea on a name change, it sounds great to me but I'm happy for it to stay the same as I am a part of the Gay and Lesbian community. I agree with your comments about membership, linking membership to party tickets has been really stupid. Thankfully young Gays such as your self are not so bitter and full of hate as some of the old queens that are currently running Mardi Gras.
Educate - Tue Mar 9 19:03:38 1999

24 Hours and no comments? Maybe eberyone is over it?
Wed Mar 10 19:03:33 1999

Over what?
Wed Mar 10 21:06:22 1999

I loved the wonderfully blonde , bootwearing cowgirl Miss Traralgon in the parade she was gorgeous!!!! anyone else see her???
xxx dyke admirer - Wed Mar 10 21:07:44 1999

Reply to Educate (9.3.99 10.33pm) The Articles of Association of SGLMG don�t expressly prohibit bisexuals becoming members, but they do put bisexuals into a separate category. Article 4.3 (d) asks that an application form for membership requires an identification by the applicant as being either lesbian, gay, homosexual, transgender, bisexual, heterosexual, other, or does not wish to disclose. Article 4.3(e) places an additional requirement on those applicants who identify with one of the last 4 categories; this additional requirement is that the applicant must �state succinctly what special factors might persuade the Board that the Applicant should be admitted to membership�. This extra requirement, by definition, means that bisexuals are not considered to be on a par with lesbians, gay, homosexuals or transgenders. Instead, they are grouped with heterosexuals, other and not disclosed. On the surface, this appears to be strange policy. Why should it be 100% harder for someone to become a member when they are already half-identifying? But there is something else here as well: the requirement for special factors also makes it hard on someone trying to join SGLMG if he or she is in the closet and can�t bring themselves to tick one of those top 4 boxes. SGLMG does an excellent job of providing a wide range of activities or shows for all of us to see ourselves and sub/consciously sound out our sexuality. But Article 4.3(e) implicitly is saying: �Want a membership? Then come out of the closet.�
mcman@ozemail.com.au - Wed Mar 10 22:37:35 1999

mcman - I have two points to make, firstly as for the statement �state succinctly what special factors might persuade the Board that the Applicant should be admitted to membership�, the two bisexuals who were excluded had incredible references to prove their commitment to the Gay and Lesbian community, one had a declaration from a past co-convenor of the Gay and Lesbian Rights Lobby stating his contribution, and many other declarations, if you want to check them out visit this page - http://www.queer.org.au/~glenv/mardigras/Glenn.htm . The other bisexual boy works as a prominent journalist for Capital Q, and if well known in queer artistic circles. So if these 2 are unable to become a member who could, I ask? As for you comments about the closet, the bisexuals involved are fully out of the closet in every aspect, so it has nothing to do with the closet, although a Gay or Lesbian closeted person is given automatic membership, what are your thought about this? Are you suggestion that all Bisexuals are closeted and this is a way to force them out? I ask you why am I out at work as a Bisexual and there are 2 closeted Gay boys? Also if you want people to feel confident about coming out, you don't oppress them and make them feel like second class citizen like Mardi Gras is doing. If you want people to come out, you make them feel it is safe to. I agree there are a lot of closeted Bisexuals, both in the Straight and Gay & Lesbian community, the reason is to come out as Bisexual in Australia is a horrible experience not only do you have to put up with Homophobia from the straight community but you have to put up with Biphobia from the Gay and Lesbian community and often from the straight community as well. If you want this to change you don't send messages like Mardi Gras is sending, and as I said we are not even covered by anti-discrimination laws unlike Gay and Lesbian people, so to come out as Bisexual leaves you open to legal discrimination. By the way, bisexuals are not half Gay and half Straight we are all Bisexual, our activity can be either Heterosex or Homosex and when we are lucky IMHO it is bisex. I really think you need to check your own prejudices.
Educate - Thu Mar 11 11:09:36 1999

Mcman - What do you mean by "bring themselves to tick one of those top 4" are you suggestion that we are confused or bisexuals don't exist, I dare you to tell my boyfriend and girlfriend that! It is easy to tick boxes, enough straight people find it easy enough to bring themselves to tick Gay so they can get party tickets. It takes a lot more courage to tick Bisexual and then attempt to take on the institutionalised Biphobia of Mardi Gras. You really cannot see much past your ignorance and hate of Bisexuals can you? Sorry, but that is what it sounds to me, if it doesn't to you, replace Bisexual with Gay or Homosexual and see how your comments and Mardi Gras' policies feel!
Educate - Thu Mar 11 11:22:58 1999

Educate, it looks more like McMan is trying to understand the issues rather than put anyone down (at least intentionally). I can understand your frustration, however, as he seems to be suggesting that by encouraging people to be out with its membership rules, MG is acting on the myth that bisexuals are just gay men or lesbians who haven't (fully) come out as such. It's certainly one attitude towards bisexuality that there needs to be more education about. I'd like to again suggest (as 78er has) that there be some way of requiring *everyone* who applies for membership of MG to demonstrate their commitment to the community and to MG's vision. It simply isn't fair on anyone when straight people can simply lie about their sexuality to get membership, it demeans the whole organisation and it has contributed to creating a biphobic atmosphere. I think it would be worthwhile to continue discussing how membership rule changes could be made & our fears about them, and how MG could contribute more than just membership to bisexuals lives. I've also appreciated hearing people's thoughts about bisexuality as distinct identity vs "practices".
fastlove - Thu Mar 11 13:53:07 1999

Fastlove, I'll be thinking about your questions, I will post up some ideas when I have the time. The reason I have been so harsh in my judgements is that I guess I expect more from people who themselves have had to put up with sexuality discrimination. I know that Gay and Lesbian people don't calmly respond to accidental homophobic remarks that the general population come out with, and this is from people who don't fully understand sexuality discrimination as they have never had to experience it. I guess I am just expecting at least some understanding from the community I am a part of.
Educate - Thu Mar 11 14:31:29 1999

The question of bisexuality as and identity vs practices is interesting because then you could debate homosexuality as a distinct identity verus the practice of same sex sexual practices. If someone was to argue that their is a difference between 2 people, one who has a bisexual identity and one who just happens to have sex with both genders then you run the risk of entering into arguements along the line of "unless you identify as a scene homosexual, and identify with the popularist idea of homosexuality, then you are just undertaking the act of homosexuality and therefore a not a real homosxual".
Thu Mar 11 15:41:29 1999

For me a bisexual identity is being physically attracted to men and women all the time, not just as some women do, have a threesome with another woman and their male partner for kicks - although, who am I to pass judgement.
biBaby - Thu Mar 11 15:44:13 1999

Educate - be practical please. Everyone understands you have been treated appallingly but the continuation of the issue on Pinkboard will not get your membership situation resolved. Why don't you talk the Reform group who ran last year - they have a membership database that can't be too far out of date. If you can get the required number of members together for a sgm, then a special resolution to change various parts of the memorandum & arts can be put to the membership. If you really do have the support of the membership, and can convince the swingers to your way of thinking, then you will be vilified for your comments. That's how it works. Sorry mate, I know you are a great contributor to the community but only a small handful of people, who may or may not be members, read or contribute to this wall. We are all (well nearly all) convinced - now you need to do the hard work off the computer terminal you are so attached to. Good luck - you will have my vote.
Homer - Thu Mar 11 16:53:42 1999

Spot on Homer, but I suspect the Reform group did not present themselves very well as a talented alternative to the Cobden clique, and it seems that most of the power poofs and dykes in Sydney are part of that group to some extent. Somewhere out there there must be people with good leadership qualities who present well and want to see Mardi Gras returned to the hands of the community.
EC - Thu Mar 11 17:30:39 1999

biBaby, the "bicurious" person can be difficult at times, but often it can be a transition to coming out as bisexual, just as bisexual is a transition for some gay and lesbian people (some gay and lesbian people started off as bicurious also, even some straight people started off as a bicurious Gay or Lesbian (the insulting term turning straight is often what this is called)). I feel many more would embrace their bisexuality and then take on a bisexual identity if the world wasn't so hostile to them in the initial stages of coming out.
Educate - Thu Mar 11 18:32:54 1999

Homer - Point Taken, and yes I have been out in the real world pushing my cause. This message board has been a great opportunity to help me verbalise what I feel and to learn what people don't understand or fear about bisexuals. As for being vilified, I don't think I have said anything that would shed a bad light on me, especially considering this is anonymous and all. Thanks Panther for the use of the technology.
Educate - Thu Mar 11 18:57:05 1999

Thanks, Homer, for the political tips. Sometimes I feel that living in Sydney and participating in producing MG is most akin to living in a small company town, like a steel town. The MG festival, parade, party etc are our "products" and to get anything done or even to get by we have to participate in Mardi Gras Ltd. Maybe that's a little harsh...but that's me at my most cynical.
fastlove - Thu Mar 11 19:58:29 1999

It�s been pointed out to me that I was mistaken in writing (posted 10.3.99 22.37pm) that SGLMG doesn�t expressly prohibit membership to bisexuals. In fact, the Articles do just that. I am grateful to a lawyer friend who has directed my attention to Article 4.10 which states that applicants who identify as bisexual �may not be admitted to membership of Mardi Gras unless the Membership Committee or the Board is persuaded that the admission of the Applicant carries with it no prospect of diminishing the essential character of Mardi Gras as a gay and lesbian organisation�.
mcman@ozemail.com.au - Thu Mar 11 23:19:36 1999

Reply to Educate (11.3.99 11.22am) I don�t have a strong view on the issue of bisexuals as members although I can�t see a strong case against them. However, fastlove (posted 11.3.99 13.53pm) is correct: I am trying to understand the issues and help work towards a coherent argument and resolution to put to the AGM. Your anger is understandable; but anger may not win the necessary votes come resolution time.
mcman@ozemail.com.au - Thu Mar 11 23:21:09 1999

Lot's of catchup comments:

mcman (Tue Mar 9 0:44:55 1999) - You suggest that SGLMG sets up separate commercial enterprises, but to be careful that it doesn't compromise the volunteers. This brings up a totally different point that I have been concerned with for a number of years. Say one MG party we can't fill a position with a volunteer, so we fill it as a paid position. Can this position ever revert to being a volunteer position? In fact where is the boundary between volunteer and paid worker?

With reference to the Greek Spaniard (or is that Spanish Greek?) they would be celebrating their Greekness at the Greek festival. They could also be celebrating their special type of Greekness. At the Spanish festival they would be celebrating as a Spaniard. (For instance - Gay Irish).

Actually this example does clarify some thinking - Greek and Spanish are not opposites! Many people view homo & heterosexuality as opposites (or ends of a spectrum). Maybe we should be trying to say that there is desire for the same sex and desire for the opposite sex as two independant things. (For example like desire for chocolate and desire to be tanned.) Some people have one or other of these desires and some have both. SGLMG is then celebrating desire for the same sex.

mcman (Wed Mar 10 22:37:35 1999) - You said �Want a membership? Then come out of the closet.� I think that this is very appropriate. Firstly, if you want to belong to a community organisation then you need to be part of the community. To do this you must come out of the closet, at least to the organisation itself. Why would someone want to belong to an organisation for a community they are part of.

fastlove (Thu Mar 11 13:53:07 1999) - Let's separate ticket membership from real membership. Then people wouldn't need to lie to become members, only to get tickets.

Thu Mar 11 15:41:29 1999 - ACON and other AIDS organisation have long identified the group MSMs - Men who have sex with men. These people do not identify as gay or bi (they usually identify as straight), but they regularly have sex with other men. This may at beats, in saunas, with the neighbour who is also married, with sex workers, etc. There is a big difference between identity and practice, which just makes this debate harder.

Homer - I think there are enough people reading this, and our friends, to call an EGM. First we need to work out what we want though. I will be starting a new wall very soon which I would like have to concentrate on this.
Panther - Fri Mar 12 11:35:39 1999

mcman, but anger is what started Homosex and Transgender liberation, Stonewall and Mardi Gras for example. Sure violence will not be a part of the liberation and inclusion of Bisexuals (I hope), but you cannot stop people from feeling angry. Point taken on winning votes, I personally will attempt to calm the fire from within and be more patient.
Educate - Fri Mar 12 13:04:39 1999

Hi Panther, good points, you might have noticed that I have been using the terms Homosex, Heterosex and Bisex. That is because, as you have stated, behaviour is very different to identity. Homosex is what connects us, Bisex involves Homosex and Heterosex and yes Bisexuals also have Heterosex. Mardi Gras started as a means of liberation and celebration for Homosex people (I'll over look the Gender issue for the moment), and through the years has slowly turned into purely a means of liberation and celebration of Gay and Lesbian Identity, this is of course wonderful, but the unfortunate side-effect of this growth has been the exclusion of people who have both Homosex and Heterosex, ie Bisexuals. The other unfortunate side-effect has been the lack of development and legitimacy of a Bisexual Identity, so we have ended up with many Homosex people with a Heterosexual Identity and in some cases Heterosex people with a Gay or Lesbian identity.
Educate - Fri Mar 12 13:52:36 1999

fastlove, I've been thinking about your question on identity. To me identity is very much a personal thing, which can be expressed in many, many ways, but the core of my Bisexual Identity is knowing that I am Ok and that I'm not an alien who deserves all the crap I get. It is also knowing that having same and opposite sex attraction is not a bad thing, that I should seek counselling for, hate my self about, or worse.... Trust me I spent years wishing I was Straight, then wishing I was Gay, hating my self for each sexual act or desire that didn't fit in with what I was suppose to be. That was until I found that I am allowed to be true to my self and take on a Bisexual Identity, first from within, and now out, loud and proud. If you mean by identity, what are the shared characteristics of bisexuals that make them a recognisable group, well I cannot answer that, perhaps there are some, but I feel that is a dangerous area that is akin to saying all Gay men are artists who speak with a lisp. Culture on the other hand is totally different, culture is where we find our tribe and find a sense of belonging, it is also where I believe the fences should be, not around sexuality, for example some Gay men are involved in a Leather culture, some in a Upperclass Artistic culture (some both), Bisexuals also belong to many different cultures, and in many instances they are within different Gay and Lesbian cultures.
Educate - Fri Mar 12 14:30:35 1999

Thanks, Educate, all good points. I know you have been at pains to suggest otherwise, (including examples from overseas) but I think if I were bi, and I wanted recognition and acknowledgement from MG, I would want bi in the title of the organisation. That raises the issue of keeping the focus of MG on our sexualities (rather than it becoming just the "Sydney" MG) which is one of my fears. However, I have noticed that people in Vancouver (and elsewhere in Canada?)have been using the umbrella term "lesbigay" for some years now, (their websites use it too) which might be an option to suggest, although I'm not sure where that leaves transgendered people...
fastlove - Fri Mar 12 16:55:39 1999

yawn
Fri Mar 12 17:01:50 1999

Well, that was a useful contribution...perhaps we had better get back to slagging each other off, to keep bored geeks amused. And by all means - post issues you find more interesting...
fastlove - Fri Mar 12 17:14:12 1999

Fastlove - I can see where your comments come from with the possibility of a name change to Mardi Gras, but at this stage it barely rates a mention, because of the high level of exclusion the current SGLMG board is practicing in relation to membership. As in, there's not much point worrying about name changes if the groups in question can't be members. Besides which, at this stage I'm not sure that as a current (ticked bi box) member of Mardi Gras I'd want my identity named in the title because the organisation has recently moved very far away from accepting my fellow bi & queer members of the GLBT community. It particularly worries me that past volunteers of Mardi Gras may not have their membership applications renewed.
LK - Fri Mar 12 17:43:40 1999

fastlove, I think it is way too early to be thinking about a name change, sure I would like Bi to be included in the name, mainly for that Bisexual boy in Dubbo who is suicidal due to the "confusion" of having same and opposite sex attractions in a world that tells you that only the Gay and Straight dichotomy exist. For me and many out Bisexuals we feel we are a part of the Gay and Lesbian community, so do not have a great desire for the name change, it is also the reason we are so offended about our exclusion. We thought we belonged, now we get the message that we don't, or that there is something wrong with us, sure we have to deal with Biphobia from individuals, but to have our premier organisation institutionalise this Biphobia it is quite damaging. If the name change issue did arise I would be happy for GLBT, some say this takes away from the message as the words are not spelt out, personally I think this is ridiculous, does BDSM or AIDS lose any of their impact? In fact I believe the message would be more powerful, as it shows a combined force within our community, instead of now where channel 10 and the Sun Herald happily display our division. For those who would like the word spelt out, it is no problem to write Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender, and when in speech GLBT is quick and easy and gets the message of inclusion and strength across.
Educate - Sat Mar 13 14:46:35 1999

zzzzzzzzzzzzz
Sat Mar 13 17:05:32 1999

Re the issues of bisexuals/straights as members of MG one possible solution during membership renewal is for everyone who wants to join/continue as members to have to show some way in which they have served our community eg. as members of the Rights Lobby, OutFM or some other organisation, not just collecting money for BGF one day a year (too easy). This could work for an initial intake to ensure that only genuine members of our community sign up, then all future members would have to be signed up by the proven genuine people who have actually volunteered their time. This would get rid of the straights who only want membership so they can attend our parties and would ensure that the bisexuals who wish to join really identify with the community (and are thus no threat). Just a suggestion.
Mel - Sat Mar 13 17:17:12 1999

Mel, when you say everyone, does that include Gay, Lesbian and Transgender people? If not what you have just suggested is what we have now, and unfortunately the current articles have been perverted by the current board to exclude bisexuals full stop. Also having a different method a membership for Bisexuals only sends the message that there is something wrong with being Bisexual. If you mean *everyone* then that would be good from a Bisexual perspective since a large number of the people who work as Mardi Gras parade marshals and party security are Bisexual, so I assume this would be enough for membership, at least one would hope so. Could be problematic though, as most of the party boys would not have done a thing for any community group, and their purchase of party tickets is the bread and butter of Mardi Gras. What about people just coming out?
Educate - Sat Mar 13 17:56:52 1999

Of course potential genuine members also "lurk" outside Parliament House on very rainy nights.
ttam - Sat Mar 13 18:08:42 1999

Fastlove, I've been thinking about membership and party ticket sales. You have 2 memberships, Full which gives you voting rights, proof of commitment to the GLBT community is required. Associate which allows you to purchase the same amount of party tickets as Full, but does not give you any voting rights, the cost will be slightly cheaper then Full membership. Both memberships have concession. This ensures that the voting power and Mardi Gras' direction firmly remains with people who are committed to the GLBT community and moves away from a hypocritical sexuality based membership system. As for party tickets sales and the need to keep the party for the GLBT community, one suggestion would be to have a statement on the membership form that states the privilege to purchase party tickets remains with Mardi Gras and that membership does not guarantee the purchase of party tickets, then tickets are sold via official outlets that can ask questions to determine if the person is a member of the GLBT community. This is just one idea I came up with, and can see problems for people from interstate, country and overseas, also how would the questions be asked, would people just make judgements on what people looked like or what they wore. I'd be interested in any comments on these ideas.
Educate - Sat Mar 13 18:39:35 1999

Educate - Your idea of Full and associate membership is not knew. I not only floated it at the "strategic planning" discussions, but have drafted amendments to the articles which would achieve it. I question however the idea of ticket outlets conducting a point of sale interrogation to determine whether a intending ticket purchaser is gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual. What questions would be asked? What answers would be acceptable. What training would be given for the people asking the questions? How do you stop people lying?
Sat Mar 13 22:08:49 1999

I'm just sitting back and reading this stuff at the moment without making comment (catching up after two weeks away). I also don't have the time to write too many responses. **Fastlove and Educate**, your question about what to call Mardi Gras if bi's are included, and mentioning the "lesbigay" option, but then being concerned about where that leaves trannies, causes me to again suggest that oh so controversial label of "queer". So far as a "name", it worked for the film festival and no one seemed to mind. However, I do understand the complexities that arise when trying to work out where the line is drawn on defining whether someone is "queer".
Technowarrior - Sat Mar 13 23:02:54 1999

I agree the question ticket sales idea has many flaws, I through that out as an example of taking a different approach to the deal with the "straights at parties" issue, which has seemed to be the reason Bisexuals were made second class queer citizen at the 1995 AGM. In my opinion if you want to keep the parties straight you stop having the president of Mardi Gras assisting in advertising the party as Sydney's must be there event on E news etc.
Educate - Sun Mar 14 2:26:55 1999

Technowarrior, I like Queer my self, and in fact identify with the term my self, but I think that comes more from a reclaiming habit I seemed of picked since as a child when I took on the label of wog with pride, more recently I have reclaimed geek. Many people have a problem with queer as it represents what they fought hard to stop the world calling them, and in some instances reminds people of the weapon used as hate against them. However I have noticed the community group MAG (Mature Age Gays) using the word. Also those who have a Queer identity may find it problematic as the word describes their culture not their sexuality, they would feel that their cultures term was being used inappropriately. Though it is a world that refuses to be defined, and has many meanings, which is its weakness and strength.
Educate - Sun Mar 14 3:02:50 1999

Okay, time for a new issue ... well, not reallya new issue, rather time to revisit a forgotten issue.
Sun Mar 14 7:39:24 1999

What has happened to Mardi Gras' strategic planning process?
Sun Mar 14 7:39:57 1999

What has happened to Mardi Gras' own promise - published in its newsletter - to make available the draft strategic plan for community comment and input?
Sun Mar 14 7:40:42 1999

What has happened to the promise to publish the plan on its website over a month ago?
Sun Mar 14 7:41:17 1999

Yes, we all know you've been busy with Mardi Gras - organising extra parties, threatening legal action, doing deals with Murdoch - but it was you who made the promise. Not us.
Sun Mar 14 7:42:23 1999

So when are we going to see it?
Sun Mar 14 7:42:47 1999

Or is McPrez and his mates hoping the issue will quietly die away - because they realised any new plan for Mardi Gras could threaten their iron control of the organisation?
Sun Mar 14 7:44:20 1999

And if anyone starts asking questions - they plan to scapegoat the Board member directly responsible - the one independent, Happy Ho. Is that the plan?
Sun Mar 14 7:45:11 1999

But we couldn't really believe they would be that wicked, could we?
Sun Mar 14 7:45:47 1999

Perhaps there's another, entirely innocent explanation. If so, let's hear it. Alternatively, lets have a link to the draft strategic plan.
Sun Mar 14 7:46:55 1999

While they're at it - perhaps they should reveal how much this planning process has cost so far. If McPrez and co plan to bury it, we should at least know how much money has been wasted.
Sun Mar 14 7:47:53 1999

Reply to panther (posted Friday 12.3.99 11.35am): my thought with subsidiary companies is that they be 100% paid staff: each sinks or swims like any other business, on its own, (unless later on, a group formation made good business sense); only SGLMG, the parent, would retain and be reliant upon volunteers. Your query envisages a situation where a position can only be filled by paying someone to do it. Before that would arise, I�d think that the job would be looked at to see if, firstly, it was essential, and if so, then secondly, if it could be split between other existing paid and/or volunteer staff. Or, perhaps you have a specific job in mind in raising this question? Bear in mind that the subsidiary company, as I foresee it, would be at arms length to SGLMG. Firstly, it would be lean, with a handful of staff; secondly, it would be located geographically away from SGLMG HQ; thirdly, it would trade with a name that had no connection to SGLMG. For instance, a subsidiary called Acme Records, would have the contract to negotiate, put together and market CD�s for SGLMG as well as put other CD�s into the market place, locally and overseas. The subsidiaries would work under a general policy direction of SGLMG, and report annually, and would be independent of direct parent management control. There are two goals being achieved in this plan: firstly, that the talent nurtured by SGLMG has a further career path opened up for them, and, secondly, that SGLMG capitalises on new income streams, without the Board having the burden of being hands on with every individual commercial venture.
mcman@ozemail.com.au - Sun Mar 14 9:49:53 1999

Reply to Educated (posted 13.3.99 18.39): I suggest another variation on the membership issue - I think that the statement of commitment to SGLMG is best left to the application and renewal forms. (Each year, every member is required under Article 5.3 to �renew his or her commitment to, and intention to abide by, the aims and objectives of Mardi Gras as set out in the Memorandum of Association of Mardi Gras;�) This is simpler and less problematic than introducing interrogations at point of sale of party tickets. I would favour, though, reducing the ticket purchasing capacity down from 3 to 2, one for the member and one for a single guest. Further, I would favour a price differential between the member and the guest. On this year�s figures, I would suggest full membership increase to $25, membership ticket price decrease to $75 ( a zero sum exercise if buying for only one party, a $10 increase if buying for two) and guest ticket price increase to $90. This would reinforce the benefit of membership, as well as increase revenue. Guests remain guests. Members, on the other hand, have already contributed financially by paying their membership dues. I have never understood why members aren�t entitled to a price advantage. And while it will be argued that this year�s party was a great success, in part because members were theoretically responsible for the other two thirds in attendance (down from four fifths), I believe members� responsibility should be reduced further to one non-member only.
mcman@ozemail.com.au - Sun Mar 14 10:30:47 1999

Look, Mardi Gras are not going to do anything about any of this. The party is going to stay the same, membership fees will increase, party ticket price will increase, and next year they will well and truly sellout (even more than this year if possible) Stop looking towards mardi gras, for change, the only way is to support alternatives. Why waste the energy on mardi gras, they have proven over and over again that they are not listening. Start another organisation which is fair to lebigaytrans and attempt to keep the bastards honest.
give it up - Sun Mar 14 10:45:44 1999

When you say "start another organisation...and attempt to keep the bastards honest", are you saying that even if you start another organisation, you will still have "bastards" running it from the start? I don't understand why you would want to waste the time repeating the mardi gras history?
mcman@ozemail.com.au - Sun Mar 14 10:58:09 1999

Educate, yes my membership would include bisexuals and trannies that had proven their committent to the community. With the party boys that don't volunteer for anything I meant that there would be an initial intake of say 1,000 people who could prove committment and that subsequent members would have to be signed up by the initial 1,000. Hopefully people who have proven that they value our community won't sign up straights who just want to party. Any straights that volunteer could possibly be signed up as associate members, bis and trannies would get full membership status.
Mel - Sun Mar 14 18:30:31 1999

The goss on the Strategic Plan. A draft report went to the Board and what it contained was too radical and innovative for them. A small committee, comprising of McLachlan, Brady and a former Board member (guess who) has been set up to rewrite it with a completely new set of watered down recommendations. Any Board member who leaks anything from Board meeting which decided this has been threatened with immediate removal from the Board. Paul van Retch has gone along with this under threat of no more work from community organisations close to Mardi Gras if he doesn't. That's why it hasn't been published or put on the Mardi Gras web site.
The Bunker blowfly - Mon Mar 15 0:07:57 1999

Why don't we all admit it, Mardi Gras is there to prove to the rest of Australia that gays and lesbians are more "fabulous" then anyone else!
The truth is out there... - Mon Mar 15 0:43:13 1999

The truth about why bisexuals are bad. School yard, heterosexuals good, gays bads...faggot, poof. Oxford street, heterosexuals bad, gays good...I'm free now, those pathetic breeders. So in Oxford street and the school yard, bisexuals have some bad.
The truth is out there... - Mon Mar 15 1:07:06 1999

Counsellor Fastlove is the Bunker blowfly telling the truth??? Or have you been neutered like van Retch?
we know who you are - Mon Mar 15 1:16:57 1999

The Bunker blowfly - Your goss is a total fabrication designed to undermine and destable Mardi Gras. You should be ashamed of yourself. The Board has been very busy - Mardi Gras only finished a fortnight ago, or haven't you noticed - it's just been delayed a couple of days.
Board insider - Mon Mar 15 8:06:41 1999

I think Educate and McMan are on the right track with their suggestions. More? My *hope* is that MG "insiders" (dare I say powerbrokers..?) are just as keen to find solutions to some of the real problems stemming from the membership rules which have surfaced over the last few years, (including the bisexual issue) and will respond to constructive criticism by taking the debate a step further into discussions around the strategic plan. On the other hand, they may just respond defensively, in which case it will be up to people who understand the system like McMan to promote some discussion forums, call a SGM and/or get some proposals before the next AGM. A simple, fast, easy satisfying process it ain't.
fastlove - Mon Mar 15 11:20:51 1999

What about the strategic plan? Does this plan take into account the community Mardi Gras purports to represent, and if so, is there any opportunity for it to recommend the investigation/discussion of Mardi Gras moving to a GLBT model (not name), just like all the USA and International organisation have done? Or are we happy to stay in the dark ages of 80s Gay and Lesbian coalition politics in Australia?
Educate - Mon Mar 15 12:19:34 1999

Is there a trend in Australian politics? Australia gets investigated by the UN for there human rights violations against our indigenous population. Mardi Gras gets bad publicity in the Sun Herald and Channel 10 for their discrimination against Bisexuals. I can only see this as a plague that is effecting Australian politics, the plague involves our "leaders" merely reflecting current opinion, so if the voters want to discriminate for what ever reason (race, sexuality...) then the "leaders" will lead in that discrimination, the concept of a leader that leads in Australia is absent. I guess it is a lot easier to feed a population drugs and entertainment then bother to educate then about human rights or discrimination. The problem with Mardi Gras stems from having career politicians involved with a community organisations, they only bring with them their ugly and uninspiring habits. Vision for something better is definitely lacking.
Educate - Mon Mar 15 12:57:54 1999

MaMan - I was referring to the process generally of volunteers being replaced by paid staff. It is not limited to one position or even one community organisation. I have seen it happen in a number of organisations through the years.
Panther - Mon Mar 15 13:24:45 1999

I have a suggestion about how Mardi Gras could start to become more representative in a community sense. It might be a bit of a pipedream, but here goes ... ... Have 2 positions on each Mardi Gras sub-committee reserved for other community groups, for example Pride, Queers for Reconciliation, Gender Centre, Leather Pride, Coalition of Activist Lesbians, Australian Bisexual Network, Bobby Goldsmith Foundation - there must be lots of others. Community groups would have to decide which committee they wanted to work on, and somehow choose a person to send along. I don't have a clear idea of how this would be physically organised, but I notice that govt departments seem to be able to set up these sorts of committees at the drop of a hat, so there must be some routine. I hope this could be implemented, as it would do much to remove the current isolatioist trend in Mardi Gras.
LK - Mon Mar 15 13:54:58 1999

Panther, I have to agree that replacing qualified volunteer community members with paid commercial staff does seem to be a rather stupid move for any community group to do.
Educate - Mon Mar 15 15:07:03 1999

Quite simple - if Paul Van Reyk's report has been "watered" down, then all hell is to pay. We have a right, as the owners of the organisation, to see this document. Come on David, give us a break. We want you to show us some true leadership. If the report, made up of a multitude of different stakeholders opinions is controversial, so be it. Release it for comment now. Who gave the Board the right to exclude Paul & Happy from this process. Not on!
Here we go again - Mon Mar 15 15:21:48 1999

I don't see why the SGLMG Board fears the release of a document they commissioned. Controversial strategic plans are just the basis for good discussion about future possibilities, not some nasty threatening thing. Unless of course parts of this strategic plan are harsh about current management behaviours & strategies ? Even so, as the McLachlan ticket campaigned on the basis of accountability, I don't see why they are delaying now ... ... Am I detecting some more hypocrisy ?
LK - Mon Mar 15 16:32:02 1999

The SGLMG Board has a hell of a lot to fear from the release of the draft strategic plan as it was presented to the Board. Some of the proposals that came from some of the stakeholders could really undermine the power and grop that some Board members (and ex-Board members) have on the organisation. That's why it has been withdrawn for "revision".
The Bunker blowfly - Mon Mar 15 17:01:35 1999

The Bunker blowfly - You know you're dribbling out a lot of fatuous nonsense. The strategic plan hasn't been withdrawn for revision. It's just been delayed. Do you really think the Board would risk another cover up after what happened last year?
Board insider - Mon Mar 15 21:01:01 1999

I guess that was your idea of a joke Insider, but you'll have to do better than that darling.
Mon Mar 15 23:23:29 1999

Hey! Who's telling the truth here? Is the Mardi Gras strategic plan delayed, or has it been killed off? One thing tho. The newsletter that came out before Mardi Gras promised it would be out before now. Not that it means anything. Anyway, if anyone from Mardi Gras reads this board perhaps you could let us know. Or perhaps you can find out for us, Panther. You seem to know a few people there.
Just an ordinary member - Mon Mar 15 23:26:09 1999

The strategic plan was to be delivered before Mardi Gras. Van Reyke said the draft would be posted on the MG web site during January (as did the news letter) so that the community could comment on it before the board ratified it in March. Its now March. And there's no draft document floating about yet. Maybe they will just ratify it without the "need" for any further input from us.
Tue Mar 16 1:34:44 1999

You bet they're planning to ratify it without any input from us. Except that the plan they will ratify is the revised santitised version prepared by the secret committee. And the revised version will require very litte change except in a few unimportant admin areas. The whole process is designed to ensure McLachlan's term as president is longer than Bev's.
The Fortress ferret - Tue Mar 16 8:52:56 1999

Did Mardi Gras get any professional assistance in developing this strategic plan or are they, like so many community organisations just going to produce a document that has no relevance to strategic planning, but is just a motherhood statement? Does Mardi Gras know what KRA, KPI etc are?
I love wasted paper - Tue Mar 16 9:49:48 1999

Any one read the Age today? Front page of the business section- "Is everyone over Mardi Gras?" Seems their over inflated economic impact statement didn't stand up to reality. Serves them right for trying to rely on these impacts as cause for change in legislation. And yes, the startegic plan has been held up by a "small review committee" who will ensure it is sanitised.
Tue Mar 16 13:54:29 1999

Golly gosh. The same article - virtually - appears on the front page of the business section of The Australian. And McLachlan's comments defending Mardi Gras is more of his typical pathetic whine. The only thing he didn't say was "It's outwageous!" As for the strategic plan being held up by a review committee, I don't believe that for a minute. McLachlan is such a wimpy wuss that he wouldn't have the guts to pull a scam like that. It's probably just got lost.
Tue Mar 16 17:08:28 1999

Hmmm... Strategic plan delayed. I wonder if Paul knows he spends two weeks every year sitting within a few metres of a bisexual. If he dosn't know it can't be a conspiracy. Judging by what people have told me about the input Paul received, I doubt the board will feel very comfortable with the result. I hope us bisexuals rate a small paragraph, amougst reams of other problems. But I don't know. We should wait and see what Paul has to say.
Munro - Tue Mar 16 22:44:27 1999

Really folks you're clutching at straws. The article which appeared in both papers was a load of trash. It's quite clear that international and interstate travellers will be saving their pennies for the fake Millennium celebrations, and that an alleged drop in numbers from 700 to 600 000 is nothing - even if those figures were ever even vaguely reliable. Is Victoria over the Grand Prix because not a tenth of those numbers attend it? Bullshit. As for David McL, play the ball and not the man.
Tue Mar 16 22:45:21 1999

I agree, where David McLachlan is concerned, we should play the ball (the only one) because he certainly is not a man.
Tue Mar 16 22:47:23 1999

What is a fake Millennium celebration? If hotels say that their bookings were down on previous years are you calling them all liers? There is no advantage in them underestimating their load, however their is an advantage in MG overstating the impact of the festival.
Wed Mar 17 10:28:29 1999

If you live by sword, you die by the sword. If you are going to use these economic indicators to support your arguments for equality then be prepared to fail when the numbers don't stack up.
Wed Mar 17 13:59:34 1999

The I'm OK because I have money mentality is f**king stupid, if that is the case why I'm I treated so poorly because of my bisexual identity? I've most likely got a lot greater wealth then any of you Anglo sand pit politicians, all made from the hard work ethics that first generation Australian wogs such as my self were taught/brainwashed. The reasons we should demand equal rights is because that is the right thing, what ever happen to human rights? Oh that's right we are in Australia, where you have to prove you deserve any rights let alone equal rights.
Educate - Wed Mar 17 14:13:48 1999

Much of the current Australian political behaviour is based on the idea that the "majority" is always right, and that contradicting the majority, even on human rights issues, is the wrong thing to do. This is reflected in the leadership of many organisations, SGLMG included. I think that's a particular shame, as in the past, Mardi Gras did take the lead in showing that the majority is not always right. Maybe the board of Mardi Gras are having trouble distinguishing between discrimination in their own community & "community building" because they have so long been in the forefront. Having been there so long, they are now blind to their own faults ?
LK - Wed Mar 17 16:21:42 1999

Reply to Panther (posted Mon Mar 15 13.34) Re voluntary and paid staff in community organisations. You have two questions: firstly, can a paid position ever revert to a voluntary one, and, secondly, what is the boundary between volunteer and paid worker? First up, there is an implicit suggestion in your question that after the originally volunteer job has become a paid one, anyone subsequently doing it will want to be paid also. Also implicit is that the organisation does not wish it to be a regular paid position. I don�t have a magic answer to this, but I think the task is before the organisation�s leaders to persuade a volunteer to take the job on unpaid in the following year. If they can�t do this, or the volunteers are not to be found, then the job needs to be looked at, possibly split up between other volunteers or other paid workers (depending on what�s involved), or possibly even dropped as a task to be performed. Not every job in a community organisation is indispensable, as is soon discovered when someone who does it very well leaves for whatever reason and the replacement is not up to the task. As to the boundary between volunteer and paid worker, I�m guessing that you�re referring to the dynamic between them. Is there a problem that you�ve observed that is harmful to the future of the organisation such as Educate (posted Mon Mar 15 15:07) refers to: �replacing qualified volunteer community members with paid commercial staff�?
mcman@ozemail.com.au - Wed Mar 17 21:39:54 1999

A fake millennium celebration is when you celebrate the end of the century 12 months early because either A. you can't count and believe perhaps that there was a year zero between 1BC and 1AD or B. you've realised how much profit there is in being able to say 'oh heck we got it wrong' when you wake up to find January 1, 2000 is the first day of the last year of the old millennium not the first day of the new millennium, and then proceed to do the whole thing again at the end of the year.
Wed Mar 17 21:55:15 1999

A fake millenium celebration? You've got rocks in your head. A celebration is whenever you want it to be, and it can be as real as any other. As to the exact date that's celebrated, did you ever hear of anyone refusing to have a holiday because Jesus's birthday wasn't actually on December 25? (It wasn't, just in case you didn't know). Go find something else to huff and puff about.
Wed Mar 17 22:20:36 1999

Reply to Panther (posted Mon Mar 15 13.34) #2: Re volunteer staff. I think you actually answered your own question better than I can, when you wrote (posted Mon Feb 22 09:28) �I am ... taking a week off work and volunteering my services to Mardi Gras. What do I get out of it? Lunch is provided. A party ticket. Coffee and water. Maybe $200 worth for 40 hours work, hard work, $5 per hour....What I get out of it really is ... I helped make this party happen. This, the most amazing party in the world. I am part of the party, and the party is part of me.� 78�er added (posted Mon Feb 22 09:47): I've worked at the Mardi Gras (and Sleaze) parties since they really took off - back in the Arts Pavillion at the rear of the old Showgrounds. I got paid the princely sum of a Party ticket. I didn't complain. I still do the same, whether I agree with some things that Mardi Gras does. Why? Because I still feel the need to make the Parties as good as they can be, regardless of organisational policy. That's what I give to community at Party Time. Some say: Oh, but you get paid. Well, I do, but I (along with others) cope with the mishaps and the unfortunate prat-falls of the evening, ... I'm still there, regardless of attempts to have a number of us retired. Why am I still there? I still believe in what the parties used to stand for - and can do so again. Pride and celebration in what and who we are - *all of us*�. It seems to me that you�re both saying, �volunteers respond to and help keep the spirit of Mardi Gras alive�.
mcman@ozemail.com.au - Wed Mar 17 22:45:47 1999

Still no official response from Fortress Erskineville about the Mardi Gras draft strategic plan. Does this mean the goss about it being "revised" are true? Or is there some other explanation? Whatever the reason, I think it was time Mardi Gras' members and stakeholders were informed of the true situation. Perhaps this is something the SSO should investigate.
An ordinary MG member - Thu Mar 18 10:35:20 1999

who's huffing and puffing? just pointing out the reality of the situation. perhaps you thought I was blaming Mardi Gras for it? sheesh. by the way, let's celebrate your birthday on someone else's next year shall we? you won't mind will you? I mean, no one cares anyway.
Thu Mar 18 17:25:52 1999

well, you got that one right: no one will care what day my birthday is celebrated because in the culture I was raised in we don't celebrate birthdays. We celebrate patron saint days: all the Johns on the same day, all the Marys on the same day. Now go home and write 100 times " The 2000 Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras" without getting excited.
Thu Mar 18 21:34:34 1999

Okay, I'm going to write The Last Mardi Gras of the 20th Century 2000 times and get very very excited! I hate to be culturalist, but I'd prefer my friends and family to celebrate me and my birth than the birth of some dusty old bones being worshipped for very dubious reasons. Sorry.
Fri Mar 19 5:04:03 1999

gee you two get angry quick! :)
Fri Mar 19 9:10:03 1999

LOL, I'm not angry. This is just a message board fergodsake. We're just sparring (I hope). But I still say celebrate the real millennium and not the fact that there are thre zeros on the date.
Fri Mar 19 11:09:46 1999

If either Tim Elkington or Simon Lloyd are at the AGM, does that mean Richard Cobden would have to leave the room, given the AVO?
Thinking ahead - Fri Mar 19 12:37:38 1999

Now there's a thought.
Fri Mar 19 14:16:53 1999

Unsigned must be Polish, they do that strange name day thing
ska - Fri Mar 19 17:53:38 1999

Actually, I �m part Czech, part Serbian, part Russian and part Estonian. I may also be part Polish (grandma hasn�t revealed all yet). I�m thinking of going in next year�s parade as a pink uprising from behind a fallen iron curtain.
Fri Mar 19 19:41:38 1999

I'm going to be celebrating the fact that people stop going on about the Y2K bug!
Fri Mar 19 22:23:32 1999

Mmm. how exotic. Are you uncut and will you marry me if we can reach a compromise on the millennium?
Fri Mar 19 22:48:03 1999

Probably the wrong place to post this. Anyway, anyone know if anything special is being organised for this New Years Eve in Sydney by Mardi Gras?
Thanks - Sat Mar 20 0:01:15 1999

If Mardi Gras has its way, everything special for this New Year's Eve will be organised by Mardi Gras ... as long as there's a buck or a thousand for you know who, and a bone for their lapdog.
Sat Mar 20 0:45:02 1999

Actually we don't really care who organises it to be honest - just hope something big is planned as we want to start making plans and would prefer to go to Sydney than overseas for the 2000 Party.
Thanks again :) - Sat Mar 20 12:44:23 1999

Well, I think SGLMG has flagged already that it is interested in running other parties aside from Sleaze and Mardi Gras, preferably, but not essentially, with groups such as Pride and ACON and other promoters acquiescing. SGLMG would like to make a painless muscle-in to the party scene in the rest of the year.
Sat Mar 20 13:19:59 1999

Well, I think SGLMG has flagged already that it is interested in elbowing other parties aside (that is, parties other than Sleaze and Mardi Gras) preferably, but not essentially, with groups such as Pride and ACON and other promoters capitulating. SGLMG would like to make a complete takeover of the party scene for the rest of the year.
Sat Mar 20 16:55:13 1999

Oh crap. Take your pills honey.
Sat Mar 20 17:32:19 1999

Sounds like Greed to me $$$
Goldern goose one day feather duster the next? - Sat Mar 20 18:06:41 1999

Oh God can't you spell Golden ??? My my
Sun Mar 21 14:13:56 1999

I hope Mardi Gras do put on a NYE party. Pride NYE is absolute crap. I can hardly believe that people complain about it year after year, but then keep going back to it. And where the f**k does the money go from Pride NYE. Some shitty little centre that hardly anyone uses (most people wouldn't even know it existed). I would much rather my money go to Mardi Gras - at least I can see where most ot it goes every February
Technowarrior (ready, aim, fire!) - Sun Mar 21 14:43:14 1999

Panther - how long before we get some new boards here and at the party wall? This one takes so long to download. While I have your attention, thanks too for putting the site here and maintaining it.
Technowarrior - Sun Mar 21 14:46:55 1999

Pride NYE has not always been crap! At Alexandria they were fun, I guess may be because they were not so big. The reason most people don't know about the Pride Centre is because they are straight and not community minded - if you are refering to those who go to the NYE party. Technowarrior, if you feel it is under utilised then perhaps you could start holding weekly meetings there to slag off all community organisations and parties that don't do what you want.
Mon Mar 22 13:52:15 1999

Technowarrior - the PRIDE centre is utilised by more than 50 community groups ! (although not necessarily every week). I'd say that's a fairly impressive number for an organisation that is not sponsored by big companies like Telstra etc. As for the parties being absolutely crap ... ... well I have had a great time every year I've been. That's obviously no real measure of their quality, but I see no significant difference between them & this year's Mardi Gras party in terms of music or decoration. Size is the only difference. The thing I like about PRIDE is that they happily accept membership from bi & queer people who are contributing to the community.
LK - Mon Mar 22 14:16:52 1999

from sydneysidewalk web site pictures etc about Mardi gras "some of the glitter and outrageous acts that passed before her lens as gays, lesbians, transgendered types and the odd stray straight had the time of their lives". This tells me that bisexuals, as they were not mentioned, a) have very exciting lives all the time b) where invisible on the night c) are not allowed to be talked about by MG aligned organisations.
Mon Mar 22 15:20:21 1999

The reason SydneySideWalk will not talk about Bisexuals in their Gay and Lesbian section, is because the person running the site comes from the same Biphobic mold as the current Mardi Gras board. I know this for a fact.
Mon Mar 22 16:21:42 1999

What mold I hear you ask...well the we Lesbians and Gays are so much better then the rest of you mold.
Mon Mar 22 18:10:39 1999

Over a week ago I sent Mardi Gras the following email message: "What has happened to the draft strategic plan? When is it going to be published on your web site?" I still haven't had a reply.
Tue Mar 23 10:20:07 1999

re the email to MG - perhaps they thought you were bisexual so they just ignored your existance and thus your email! It is interesting how it is more acceptable to be straight than bisexual to MG. I guess they have to add the line about "the odd straight" so they could include Jimmy and Dannii. One of the definitions for "Odd" in my dictionary is "mismatched" - and that is so true.
Tue Mar 23 13:31:16 1999

Bernie Sheehan is the head honcho down at Sydney Sidewalk..I don't think she minds bisexuals. get over it..too much space is taken up by this issue, and you are in the minority.
Tue Mar 23 21:02:05 1999

Don't stress out about not getting a reply from Mardi Gras after only one week. I emailed them once last year and it took four months for a reply. It was just a simple membership request at that! Eventually did it via snail mail and it was completed in a week!
Tue Mar 23 22:57:01 1999

Don't forget, children, the Anti-Discrimination Board hearing of the "Lesbian and Gay Consultation: Agenda item 3 - Mardi Gras Membership" (which is code for "why aren't you giving memberships to bisexuals?") is tomorrow, Wednesday, March 24, 5.30pm at the offices of the Anti-Discrimination Board, Lvl 4, 181 Lawson Street, Redfern. Ph: 9318 5400
Tue Mar 23 23:15:25 1999

Why should we bisexual get over being in a discriminated minority? We helped fight for anti-discrimination laws and rights for gays and lesbians, so why should we give up fighting for the same rights for our selves?
Tue Mar 23 23:43:02 1999

Bernie Sheehan left Sydney Sidewalk ages ago. She's now moved on to Encylopedia Brittanica on line.
Wed Mar 24 6:26:08 1999

You shouldn't.
Wed Mar 24 7:00:15 1999

"and you are in the minority" Ohhhh well then, using that arguement, all gays and lesbians should just shut up because they are in the minority of society. Isn't that a bit of a nasty statement to make. As some one else pointed out previously, no one said to bisexuals in '78 that they should "get over it" and go away from being bashed by police. And if you are talking about bis being in a minority at the parade then I want you to provide me with proof (yes i agree that their wer more homosexuals, but how many straights?). Does being in a minority remove any right to fredom of speech. You got one fact wrong re (Bernie) so perhaps you could have that wrong too. As far as the comment that too much sapace has been taken up by this issue, you are sounding very narrow minded and don't care about peoples right to recognition and antidiscrimination. Perhaps you could start another topic that interests you rather than just putting down those who are using this board to express themselves.
Wed Mar 24 11:45:23 1999

The first person to be arrested during the 1978 Mardi Gras was a straight! And he wouldn't be allowed to join now by the heterophobic biphobic board.
Wed Mar 24 13:07:25 1999

Damn! After planning to go, I can't get to the Anti-Discrimination Board Meeting. I would have liked to hear the discussion about bisexuals and MG membership for myself. Would someone who does go please devote some space here to describing what went on? Thanks...
fastlove - Wed Mar 24 17:24:24 1999

Oh god you touchy half queens !!! Go back to the safety of your heterosexual relationships and leave us inverts alone please....
Wed Mar 24 19:00:47 1999

Being monosexual isn't inverted.
Thu Mar 25 0:49:22 1999

I just wish I could get it up - forget about sexuality.
My poor boyf - Thu Mar 25 9:24:02 1999

All because someone supports bisexuals here it does not mean that they are bisexual. Remeber that not all homosexuals are discriminatory, although with the attitude here you could some time think other wise!! Remeber that bisexuals can go home to their safe homosexual relationship too.
Thu Mar 25 9:35:30 1999

my second relationship is with a bisexual couple and my gay friends ( because i am gay identified and in a gay relationship ) find the thought of a woman in bed horrifying yet bitch and carry on about how unhappy they are. My life has never been so rich and full, my boyfriend and i live as a couple in suburbia and i visit my couple once, maybe twice a fortnight and wow do i love it. so if you gay boys fantasy is straight men maybe you have to take the wife\girlfriend too i just love everything serviced at once saves so much time : ).
Thu Mar 25 23:28:06 1999

You treat sex as if it was eating out. Is physical gratification that important to you ? You say you have a gay relationship, if you need a bi couple now and again how does your boyfriend feel ? Does he sit at home with the Tv on and explain to his friends that you are out getting your rocks of with a straight couple ? Tacky to say the least.
yuk - Fri Mar 26 7:06:38 1999

yuk - How could the guy be straight if he is having sex with a man? May be his boyfriend is open minded, self confident, and happy for the time apart. He may also not be a tragic case who can't entertaim himself except by complaining about other people's lifestyle choices (sounds like I am talking about Fred Nile for a minute). Relationships can be polyamorous, so it's just not all about physical gratification, there can be psychological gratification as well.
Fri Mar 26 8:19:12 1999

yuk - you are a very narrow minded and sex-negative individual. What is wrong with enjoying sex???? What is wrong with *negotiated* relationships that don't fit the monogamous model???? The arguments you are using are the same arguments that the religious right use against homosexuals. I can only feel that your comments have been created out of internalised homophobia, and the need to conform to societal pressures. Get over it, you are Gay (or Lesbian) and there is nothing you can do about it, nor is there anything wrong with that!
very sad indeed - Fri Mar 26 11:35:42 1999

yuk - they are a bisexual couple not a straight couple. Bisexuals engage in homosexual and hetrosexual sex (just like some homosexuals engage in hetrosexual sex). If someone wishes to identify as bisexual then you should respect their right to express themselves that way and not relabel them with terms and expressions that are meant to be derogatory. Many people think that the whole concept of homosexual sex is tacky, discusting, immoral etc so perhaps you should stop dividing the queer community and learn to respect the diversity of others choices.
Fri Mar 26 13:00:23 1999

So is David about to enter the bear pit?
Wax your crack - Fri Mar 26 15:21:32 1999

I wrote the comment yuk reacted to I didn't put my name it's david by the way. mmmm so much anger yuk , I am happy my livin partner is happy ( he does more than watch tv ) I would not contemplate having this relationship with someone who wanted to posses,own or dictate what is right or wrong when it comes to people I wish to express physical,mental and emotional love to it would be unfair on both of us. My situation is unique in lots of ways and maybe doesn't fit your norm. ( whatever that is ) but after 4.5 yrs it's lasted longer than a lot of so called one on one relationships my friends have had. I am completly fulfilled with my lovers (only the three) I find it sadder listening to my friends who are forever trying to find the ultimate lover, then when they do forever bitch,worry, fight and get jealous , thats not living. i know some couples in one on one relationships who are very happy too it takes all types and unlike some loud people we don't discuss our relationship/s with friends,family or anybody for that matter what actually goes on is private, and sex isn't the only thing that goes on some times a bit of dinner a couple of drinks a video or a chat is all my couple and i want just like any relationship really I love my friend dearly but have no desire to own or be owned by anybody true love is accepting people for who they are not how they look on your arm or what you can get from them i know this is Mardi Gras wall and I read a comment about bi-sexual people not allowed into this or that well sorry people but the amount of bi people around as it is is amazing but its a gay and lesbian party and i think most people respect that.
david - Fri Mar 26 22:32:21 1999

thanks to david for explaining how it all works in his lifestyle. sometimes people react so harshly to such little information. we all have bias for/against different things. this entire wall has educated some and enraged others ... i have been a silent & occasional follower of this entire discussion page. the merits in it are that people have had a chance to let out what they feel about how the S L G MG org works/ doesn't work. ok lets all sign off /change tack and start thinking about actively doing stuff for the next 8 months to get the next set on parties, etc on tack ... i will :)
Felix - Sat Mar 27 21:58:47 1999

Lets change thie name of the bloody Gay and lesbian mardi gras...as soon as the exclusionist idiots added the word 'lesbian' the word 'gay' changed its meaning to gay 'men'. So according to their logic we should be calling it the South Pacific Gay and Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, Transexual, Asexual, Parents and Friends of Gays and Lesbians, Politicians who support us Mardi gras Parade ..because thats who in it!
Call it the Queer Parade.... - Sun Mar 28 2:24:21 1999

Dear brother or sister, bi, gay, lesbian, (straight even?)or transgender writing as "Call it the Queer Parade" : Idea! Why not call it the Love Parade so folks who fear the word "Queer" can sleep at night, we can perhaps(god damn it!) accept each other and have a good time dispite our bigotry, pain, and very Sad psychological Issues so evident all up and down the length of this PinkBoard... (thank you Panther for this open forum) Lets be truly revolutionary (not childish, aimlessly pissy or dried up) and get back to the reason this parade that the party stems from happens : visibility, a damn good time, ;) the opportunity to have straight women and men cheer and clap for our fabu-ness in the streets we take by storm (keep on Goin' grrls n boyz!) For Mgras 2000 I call from the heart for a salute to the *Love* of men for men, women for women, bis for both/either, polys for their groups, parents for their children, friends for their friends. Salute Queer Human love for our Heartmates and Bed or Beat Partners!!! What do you think. C'mon people now, smile on yer brother. That old 60's 70's love stuff isnt so wrong. But I've been reading this insulting, degrading, slanderious bunch of winging and pissing down peoples pants, and something in MG seems to have gone very, very rotten to me. Why not do our research and emulate some other successes - open up our party, more like the Love Parade or prides in the USA and make it truely Groovy for all. Why not? Tell me reasonably, why not? Just police it well (but I hated the sheep herding thing at the turnstyles too!) and for goddess sake, hire some damn gayboy decorators for the party so it isnt so ugly! Oh, just dismantle the floats and decorate the dance floors with the detachable parts, (like the Drags on towering dresses this year, bringing the fun and joy of the parade *into* the party) ...and no more $$$ needs to be spent on that, as we use all our lovely stuff twice in one bloody everlasting night! a bit ticked off but I still love you all,
your sister, Bi Dyke - Sun Mar 28 8:30:58 1999

PS and line the wals of the Dome et all with the discarded lovely *Inclusive* banners of the marching groups - why not? Tell me reasonably why not? (and mind how you write to me or mamma spank.) >;)) big grinnn,
BiDyke - Sun Mar 28 8:41:56 1999

"The Love Parade" I love it !!! :) Its simple and strong and none of the fundies can get it . We will also be reclaiming support that we have lost in the wider community because of perceived ( and actual) exclusivity. And dont think that the people in the suburbs dont count..thats just ghetto snobbery. The Bisexual exclusion is just the beginning. To solve that issue we have to have a complete revolution in Mardi gras.
Love Parade Supporter..thank you bidyke. - Mon Mar 29 3:49:35 1999

Guess whats happening over at Leather Pride.. they have just given the Inquistion party over to the ACON lot. even worse the theme this year is 'the seven deadly sins' so inspiring and leather even apple macintosh is using it for its latest campaign.
Ex Leather Pride Supporter. - Mon Mar 29 3:52:52 1999

ex lether pride supporter- who told you that S L P A has "given" Inquisition "over" to ACON, and what do you mean by "given"? Please provide facts rather than hearsay. I suggested that only 100% leather people may attend Inquisition based on the precident set by MG! Sexually straight gays have been killing the atmosphere at Inquisition for the past few years and taking the available tickets away from the bdsm community (no, lycra is not a fetish, just bad taste). There should be compulsory bdsm scenes lasting for a minimum of 20 minutes, ability to ccorrectly identify 20 items commonly found in dungeons and attendance at atleast one S L P A meeting to be eligible to buy a ticket (2 if you make your Sub cry). Sorry MG Board members, your now excluded - How does it feel?
SubSub - Mon Mar 29 7:51:34 1999

Bidyke, the Love Parade is a nice idea, however... My main dispute about the 60s and 70s stuff is that it wasn't all that good. If you stop looking with rosy glasses it becomes apparent that the love generation was filled with hate. Hate for anything that disagreed with, or was different from themselves. Hatred of politicians had a lot to do with the fact that authority was not created in the flowerchilds self image and was different from them. Political activism from that era turned conservative. It wasn't an outside influence, that's too simplistic. It's that the people in those times didn't resolve the issues where they really resided - inside themselves. They chose to try and change everyone else to either agree with themselves or be like them - and if they weren't they were "square" or "pigs" etc. I think the same would apply to the Love Parade. It would work only when the participants had come to terms with themselves and not use the venue as a means of escaping the really hard job of accepting their own ideantity as part of a wider scheme of things. Just like the MG Parade really :)
Going round in circles - Mon Mar 29 9:23:43 1999

Yes stay out of Inquisition you vanilla straight gay boys, your presence disturbs us freaks, please give us at least 1 night of the year where fetish and BDSM rules! After all how does Inquisition help establish and build a Mardi Gras approved Gay identity? P.S. Perverted Bisexuals are welcome.
The top of tops. - Mon Mar 29 9:43:50 1999

ex leather pride supporter - I have just got off the phone from a SLPA party organiser who said that their is no association between Inquisition and ACON. So your comments were just and unfounded rumour. Top of the Tops, it was interesting that the SPLA float was number 156. Why at a Sydney event do they put so many interstate entrants ahead of Sydney entries? Why do commercial and non community group entries get to be so forward in the parade? Lets not even think about the chance of TV coverage for perverts like us (yes, there was a few second glimps during a throw to commercial). SPLA and Inquisition does nothing to build a MG approved Gay identity and that's the way I like it. May be we should all turn up in leathers at the next MG meeting and do some image modification.
SubSub - Mon Mar 29 13:41:35 1999

Just heard on the vine...Inquisition plans to ban Mardi-Gras Board members because they are not gay and lesbian enough for the Leather/SM Community. That same night..the bears want to hunt the swine who deleted them from the TV parade broadcast. This will be the show...crucifiction of M/Gras Board Members, while the bears record it for posterity. Can someone confirm that Leather Pride does not give free tickets to M/Gras board members. If so..who do they give them to.
Gay & Free (to be chained) - Mon Mar 29 14:24:47 1999

Leather Pride give free tickets to people who work at the party. They do not give free tickets to Dannii, Jimmy or anyone else who could get the SLPA Presso on TV. There is a limit to how much publisity even the loudest tops wants. The reason that MG Board members should not be allowed to go is because they would dilute the essential bdsm nature of the party by having hissy fits and not doing as they are told.
Mon Mar 29 15:42:04 1999

Does that mean we cannot expect to see Sonya on TV telling the rest of Sydney that Inquisition is the must be there advent for Sydney? Shame I was looking forward to that......oh silly me I forgot that the only authorised and legal identities as stated by our supreme leaders at SGLMG is for Gays to be either waxed and muscled or bitchy Drag Queens and Lesbians to have shaved heads and motor bikes.
The Top of tops. - Mon Mar 29 18:23:58 1999

Perhaps we need an Inquisition Wall Panther, sir?
Nat - Mon Mar 29 18:26:00 1999

There is more discussion about Inquisition on the Party Graffiti Wall.
Panther - Mon Mar 29 20:27:51 1999

Better still, get the person who delivers Inquisition to the Leather crowd to advise Leeson how to deliver the Mardi-Gras Parties to the Gay and Lesbian Community.
Gay & Free (to be chained) - Tue Mar 30 13:33:14 1999

McLachlan in the Herald today: "We have to make money otherwise it will all fall over". If Mardi Gras is about prostituting itself to commercial concerns, Mr President, then go ahead and let it "all fall over".
Tue Mar 30 14:32:57 1999

I read that article in the Sydney Morning Herald as well. My reaction wasn't quite as strong as the person above but along the same lines. David's argument is nonsense. Without money there would be no Mardi Gras - according to David. You're wrong David. Without the members there would be no Mardi Gras. Without the voulenteers, the support from within etc. He's right in that there might not be the MG we've come to identify with the commercial banners, and the road blocks, and the tv coverage. MG would be a lot more uncomfortable without these things - but the parade existed before them as well. But it wouldn't fall over at all. It's just the static and dated ideas on what a MG parade should look like would fall over - and that's not the same thing.
Tue Mar 30 15:05:27 1999

It's now the end of March. Still no appearance of the draft strategic plan on the Mardi Gras site. Obviously it's not going to appear ... so what? No one cares any more.
Wed Mar 31 7:00:59 1999

Mardi Gras Board members are not getting any free inquisition tickets, nor did they last year. So they can sit at home on May 8th and be jealous of a real community party.
SubSub - Wed Mar 31 8:16:41 1999

continued ...

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