Pinkboard: Men's Only Space Debate

The issue of the Men's Only Space is still around, so I feel that it is time to devote a graffiti wall especially to this topic. Lets have a serious debate to see if we can come up with a solution or solutions. Lets not resort to bitching and name calling. SGLMG should see this debate as I know that people from the party committee watch here. I also anticipate that this will be a topic at the AGM.

The issue as I see it is that there is a group of people who want a Men's Only Space at Mardi Gras and Sleaze parties, similar to the Women's Only Space. The reasons for this has not clearly been spelt out, and whether the MOS is the solution to the problems that face the parties is also debatable. Some reasons for an MOS space are:

  1. Women have one so why can't men have one too.
  2. A MOS has a special feeling that you just can't get with women around.
  3. The MOS may help combat the problem of too many straights at the parties.
  4. People just need something to bitch about.
  5. There is a growing separatist trend within our community.
    (I will add to this list as more reasons appear)

I am going to take advantage of my position and also make initial responses to these reasons:

  1. The WOS was created to encourage lesbians to attend the party. There used to be a very low proportion of women at parties (5-10%?), but since the WOS that has increased (20-25%?). Men still outnumber women so there is still a need for a WOS to encourage women to attend.
  2. I can't comment on this. Lets explore this reason more.
  3. It may help. SGLMG seems to be pursuing other policies though, such as their ticketing policy. Remember also that PRIDE had a very successful ticketing policy for New Year. Lets explore what other methods can be used to keep our parties lesbian and gay. Don't forget that there are straights, bis, trannies, etc who should be at our parties.
  4. Not on this wall please.
  5. I am a coalitionist. I fear that separatism will destroy all the advances that we have made.
Copyright (C) Pinkboard, 1998. Racism, sexism, libel and other offensiveness is not welcome.
Hey Hey Hey, I am the first on this wall - but I'd much rather a Graffiti Wall devoted to whether we should get Madonna at the Party. I stick with my line that if you were with me in the Dome at 6:30 and one of many people that I went down on on the dance floor - then you wouldn't care less whether there was a Men Only Space at all. Do what you like when you like it.
I saw that look in his eyes (thanks thanks thanks Sveta for the sleaziest moment in my life) - Fri Mar 13 21:13:08 1998
We should not look at a MOS as a deterant for straights. The majority of halls and outdoor space will be mixed, therefore there is space for them and they won't be drastically put out. The Dyke space has not stopped unwelcomed straights coming to the party. It has, however, provided a shelter from these people who have little regard for the community that the party is meant for. We should not be using our gender targeted spaces to hide from these people. That is resigning to the fact they have taken overand destroyed the very essence of our party. If we do have a MOS we must do it for positive reasons. To dance, sleaze, have sex....
cumrat - Sat Mar 14 0:34:55 1998
Well, Darling, I am the second, and have something more appropriate to say. I am for a men's space for the following reasons. (1) there is a special feeling about dancing and hanging out with men only, it encourages togetherness, and a way to express our sexuality without being sneered at or feeling embarrassed (though some should!) 2. It is our right as members of the sglmg to express our opinion, to a board without much understanding regarding the issue. The reasons for this is that the board is run by women who do not have any understanding of the issue. Their idea of a resolution to the matter was to stick a dj in the men's dunnies, how inappropriate.In a sense they are newcomers to the scene and are either unwilling or downright ignorant of much of the ill feeling 3. a major problem that contributes to this is the fact that gay men and lesbians are not sexually attracted to each other, this means that the precence of numbers of women (straight or les) detract from the atmosphere of hot sweaty bodies dancing and getting into the groove. there is nothing worse than looking to the left and seeing a tribe of women dancing together, or even worse a mixed group getting down in a circle formation, very 70's and very awful. 4. i have no problem with mixing with gay women on a social level, at dinner, at gilliagns or some other mixed bars. What I am tired of are certain lesbians who seek to exert their rights for inclusion in a rather unglamourous political fashion. do not forget that gay men established a presence on oxford long before women arrived on the scene. This problem is becoming more prevalent, most notably at the Shift where women take offence that they are denied entry, after all some of the boys can't even get in on a busy night. this was rectified in part by the shift holding womwns nights on thursdays, but yet again this is not good enough, they want entry on the saturday and more more more.... just because women have sex with the same gender, the same as gay men do, does not mean that there is a common bond linking us. the point is that the ambience changes and the crowd becomes quite agitated. i just cannot undersand why they would even wish to dance with 300 gay men. Another point is that if women are allowed in the straights exert their "perceived" rights also and want admission. Things the deteriorate at we end up with a situation like DCM or the exchange which are no longer gay (and they were fantastic venues in their day) and mens spaces will all be mixed and the same as same as everywhere else 5. sexual attraction certainly plays no part in this, so it could be put down to the lack of womens venues. In other parts of the world gays and lesbians do not mix at all, except on a sociail level, and bars are clearly defined, men, women, leather, house, etc. There is no overlap, thus no problems of exclusion. Perhaps we should follow this model. 6. I am also concerned of the subtle takeover of "gay and lesbian" to "lesbian and gay", this was probably engineered by the women on the board, and was heard numerous times at the opening ceremony, and even appears in print on the mardi gras cd!! Things as they start small, and then take over waht was before it. how much longer will it be befoer the board decides to change the name to "lesbian and gay mardi gras", and what would people feel about this?? 7. my last gripe is that I wish more men would get involved in things at the community level and try and establish our rights, and speak on behalf of the rights and expectations of gay men. for too long we have been bored with the antics of our representatives, the debacle at pride centre and the media queen and control freak women on the mardi board.iIf you are a member of sglmg, then make your feelings known at the next meeting.it is only by doing this that things will change.
Rather Agitated - Sat Mar 14 0:41:07 1998
I am surprised to see so much sexism in the gay community. A person is a person, regardless of sex. Why can't gay men and women coexist - why can't straights and gays coexist - why can't we all coexist happily. And to be worried about having the word 'lesbian' in front of 'gay' (as the person above is), just goes to show the level of insecurity in some people. Big deal - get over it.
Keep People Together - Sat Mar 14 1:41:21 1998
What this community lacks are those all important building blocks that originally built this community. we need to all "Think" of what directions we want to take so that this community will be an example for others to follow. The solutions to all our problems are very simple in so far as it can be reasoned by simple mathamatics. My first suggestion would be for the board to resign so that we can think clearly without emotions becomming involved in the thought process. we need to start with a clean slate! Then we need to rename the mardi gras so that it reflects more of our diverse community and acknowledges the change of direction, combined with a greater understanding of our common goals.every person within our community should be encouraged to apply for membership.It is a non-hetrosexual community and therefore should reflect this in the membership, along with the many supporters that have helped us.(this will depend largely on the way membership is advertised or promoted ) The New board needs to better represent all members. while gender arguments are bound to a difficult issue,iIt needs to refect the members and so should be a diverse and resourceful group. The ratio of gender/s to members to board members needs serious consideration and should be looked at with a pro-rata attitude and careful consideration...... Trust, Understanding and Vision being Paramount. It is important to remember that all of us are individuals who have chosen to be represented in this community... And all have the right to be represented including.....you. ps....constructive thought is vital ?
Re-invent............. - Sat Mar 14 6:35:56 1998
Altho I do not actually consider myself a 'separatist' I have to agree that Men only bars/spaces are needed. Lesbian and gays men exist at opposite ends of the sexual spectrum and have virtual nothing in common. That we get on at all amazes me! I also agree that lesbians have taken over the gay press and the sglmg. This is our own fault tho. It is caused by apathy on gays behalf. As for 'mixed' venues, untill I can walk into a public bar in Newcastle and kiss my boyfriend without getting bashed we need men only spaces were we can feel safe. As for straights in gay venues, why? If I want to hear a hevay metal band I go to a rock venue, if I was straight I'd go to a singles bar. Why should straights have any right to enter gay bars at will? You try getting into an over 28's singles bar well you have your arm around your boyfriend! It would be great if we could all co-exist together but that doesn't even happen in the straight world, ever venue has its on look/feel and caters for a particular type of crowd. Personally I vote with my feet and have stopped going to the Albury because of too many lesbians/tourists and straights. I have told management there why as well.
My 2 cents. - Sat Mar 14 18:26:16 1998
Lets restrict the discussion to a MOS at Mardi Gras and Sleaze parties only. Lets also not complain about current boards but look towards the future. If we can come up with concrete ideas and reasons and present them to sglmg, possibly at the AGM, then there is more likelyhood of what is being said being accepted. This space will not be used for bitching about women in venues or organisations.
Panther - Sat Mar 14 19:44:29 1998
I deserve the right to dance in a MOS at OUR party, just as much as our lesbian friends can, and I fully respect their space as well. If the attending straights cannot handle this, so be it. It is OUR party remember!
Gay & Proud - Sat Mar 14 22:35:47 1998
This is a very dangerous track..... without any benefit for the next generation...It makes me angry that people can be so stupid.! Okay give us guys our own Space, and in a couple of years someone will ask why we need Lesbians Full Stop?. Indeed, where will the Lesbian vote be without 70% of its Voice.
Think very Hard.............. - Sat Mar 14 23:38:43 1998
You got me wrong. I support a MOS as well as a WOS. Crowds will dictate. I just hope that the straights as such will respect the fact that it is really a Gay and Lesbian night. If they can';t get into a MOS - don't try and force your way in and claim discrimination. I love going to bars/clubs/events with my 'straight' friends, but I do not invite them to the Mardi Gras Party. They are mature and understanding enough to know that it is our night and have no objection. They enjoy our company every other night of the year, so it is not hard for them to give up one! Maybe my straight friends are more understanding than others?
Gay & Proud - Sun Mar 15 2:05:52 1998
Was the DJ & dance lights in the mens "dark" toilets an attempt at a MOS ? Uggh !If so that was a very *sick* MG ! Put the ACON stand down and/or full lighting there by all means but don't shove a DJ in and call it a MOS - thats a pretty direct insult in my book. Personally I'm not in favor of a MOS - if you can't be out eneough to be comfortable in anything but a MOS then the problem is your internal homophobia not the lack of a MOS.
jimmi - Sun Mar 15 4:50:00 1998
Gay and Proud: Can you explain *why* you deserve to dance in a MOS? And what a MOS will give you?

Jimmi: I am sure the DJ in the toilet was meant as a joke, not as a serious attempt at a MOS or any form of insult.
Panther - Sun Mar 15 14:30:12 1998

As I have just had my first Mardi Gras party this year and danced most of the night in the Horden (due to the not so crowded space, unlike the RHI). I probably would have ventured into a MOS, but I didnt go to the Party for sex or trying to see how many cute guys I could grope/fondle etc, I went there to celebrate my sexuality (Gay) with my friends (also Gay). I agree on the decreasing of straight people, but I also see that it may be necessary to include them. This is a hard issue for the SG&LMG assoc, ie to keep all groups of the Community (gay and lesbian) happy and cater for all. As our community is extremely diverse, why not have a MOS, WOS, Mixed OS, and whatever else needs to be catered for. I am sure that people moved around the pavillions most of the night (like I did, but as I said I was in the Horden most of the night. Again I say well done and thanks for the best night of my life (so far). I am looking forward to Winterdaze, Sleaze, Pride (WA), Run and NYE in Sydney... Lets make sure Mardi Gras is a celebration of who we are.
Adam (Melbourne) - Sun Mar 15 23:01:33 1998
I love to dance in a group of men. Sweaty bodies rubbing together. Guys around me who are f**king, sucking, fondling... and those who watch this happen are watching as members of the community who the party is for. They are men who enjoy the samething and appriecate what is going on. I don't enjoy having people around with that *oh my gosh* look on their faces as gay men around them party how they want to. I love dancing with a group of gay men, where there is no feeling of being watched by outsiders, as I cruise and play and just dance with a group of men who are *the* most important and defining part of my community. We might want to be brave and shock the straights out of the centre of the dance floor by having Dicks Out @ 1am. But that felt for me, I was there, like a performance and did not approach anything that I would consider self enjoyment of my own sexual and social needs. I dearly wanted to get be sleazy and feel free to play and cruise how I wanted to. But at DO@1, like at anytime at our parties, we were surrounded by on lookers who were not a part of us. These on lookers might as well have arrived on a tour bus organised at the children's school fete. They are tourists coming to see what a Gay and Lesbian party is like.
cumrat - Mon Mar 16 0:19:44 1998
There are many examples the world over where a village or tribe are discovered by the rest of the world. Then they become a tourist destination. Then the tourist change the village or tribe and it's environment by their interaction with that community. The tourist feel that they have a right to be there and a right not to respect the customs of that village. They did after all buy the ticket. They take photos of people who don't wish their photos taken, they stare at the ways that the people of the village carry out their day to day lives. They don't take time to find out the customs to avoid insulting the people of the village. The villages react by not doing the things that made them unique. They adopt was that are more like the rest of the world. The unique nature of their communities is lost...We have a unique community which is celebrated at festivals, fair days and in everyday life. Our parties are an important part of these celebrations but they are also an important part of who we are. When our parties lose their identity we lose another time and space where we can be that community. I want a space where I can be that community without the tourist watching me. At the parties we can't stop straights/tourist from being in a mixed hall without stopping them from coming to the party. But by experience they are less inclined to come into gender targeted spaces. I want a Men Only Space.
Mon Mar 16 0:53:38 1998
What a load of crap (see above).
Mon Mar 16 2:07:35 1998
I appreciated the above anthropoligical examination of "tribes" and "cultures". Makes good sense. The message immediately above is unintelligent, and a waste of time. Try visiting the Albury any night of the week and you will get to know how the hill tribes of Thailand feel. So many tourists, gawkers, and troublemakers. I am for a MOS, and feel that the party needs to be scaled down. Do not forget that the majority of gay men do not choose to attend the party, and no-one can tell me that the 19,000 tickets would be snapped up by gays and lesbians exclusively! The people who wish to party purchase their tickets early, then the straights hear of it and purchase theirs through friends. It stands to reason that if there are spare tickets they are sold to the straights as everyone else has theirs. No-one can convince me that thee are 19,000 gays and lesbians in Sydney who would attend the party. The real number is closer to 12,000. With the rest made up of straights.
I much prefer my Mardi Gras cocktail party apres parade - Mon Mar 16 9:30:40 1998
I will spell out why men want a Men Only space: With men there is a definite link between dancing, eroticism & sensuality. Last Leather Pride proved that. Gay men do not feel erotic or sensual when there are women around - the reason is that we are Homosexual. Get it - we are fags.
Stony Chute - Mon Mar 16 15:53:09 1998
"Stony Chute", brief concise and to the point. What you have said is the "precise" reason for demanding a Men Only Space.
I was at leather pride - Mon Mar 16 16:00:53 1998
I was surveyed by sglmg yesterday - interestingly part of the phone survey covers the issue of whether there should be a gender only space - for both men & women, and also asks whether you would be willing to sacrifice a major dance hall to achieve it. It seems that there is some interest in the issue.
Maybe someone is listening after all. - Mon Mar 16 18:53:28 1998
Buddy, you were good!
hot as - Mon Mar 16 19:18:25 1998
Stony Chute: Last leather pride there were many lesbians present. I don't think that made any difference to the eroticism & sensuality. What does contribute to the eroticism & sensuality is the music, the lighting, the drugs, a person's frame of mind, etc.
Panther - Mon Mar 16 20:13:30 1998
I am a straight(I think)male who has on the odd occassion played with some very naughty boys. This is my opinion. Of course MOS should be implemented. Like many other communities or groups for all sorts of people it is not about 90's nonsensical "politically correct" cowpat. It is about a group of people cumming together to celebrate something in common. If you open it up for all then it loses its identity, strenghs and common purpose. That is why there are tens of thousands of clubs, organisations, community groups and the like all who seek a common interest and who for the most part have common entry criteria. The important point to remember is that dilution leads to erosion of the very ideals, beliefs and standards each individual group has. JAG PS Luvved MG, embarrased by some straights behaviour and anyway I'd rather dance with you boys anyday especially at that hothouse Stonewall.
JAG - Mon Mar 16 21:34:19 1998
Why bother having a wall and encouraging discussion if all you can do is natter on about lesbians rights and commenting on their very presence at every opportunity, Panther????? If you want the wall then let everyone express their view, without defending lesbians in every one of your comments.They have their space, at our expense, so let us discuss the issues to obtain ours, OK??
I am not interested in the opposite sex at all - Mon Mar 16 23:13:43 1998
I think that it is time for a certain group to respond to this "difference" as it enters its second year.........at least 2nd..?
Concerned member.......! - Mon Mar 16 23:22:10 1998
While you may not be interested in the other sex at all, I would love to hear some positive reasoning as to why you want a MOS. Rather than complain about Lesbian control on MG, why not ask where are the Gay men and what are they doing in regard to exercising control over our community parties. Why is there always a poor turn out at AGMs? Why are you not contacting Bev Herself? She needs to know why you need a MOS.
Mon Mar 16 23:38:08 1998
Guys, get over this crap that lesbians are taking over Mardi Gras, your space, your sex lives and everything else. Do a head count on how many lesbians there are at the party and stop blaming them for everything. When and where have you heard them doing all this whinging? The reason they have a space of their own — which is not exclusive because I went in there for a brief period with one of my lesbian friends — is that they are on average smaller than us and probably don't get off on dancing in our armpits all night. No lesbian is going to stare at you as though you are a freak because you're having a grope on the dance floor. I've seen them doing it themselves. It's the straights who treat the party like a tourist destination complete with live shows — and who invited their straight girly girly friends from work along in the first place? Not the dykes boys. So get over the Lesbian Menace. Your ‘problem’ — if there is one — does not lie with dykes taking over anything. Get yourself a lesbian friend or two and quit listening your own paranoia. Remember a few Sleaze Balls back when the straights freaked out at the gay and lesbian porn being shown on huge screens in the Hordern — that's a better solution. Start frightening the animals. Or alternatively, though I can't see it working without the Telegraph screaming, ask for separate boyz and girls entrances to the major pavilions as someone suggested above. Those straight girlies will grab their backpacks and get their musclebound boyfriends out of harm's way quicker than you can say 'Madonna is doing the closing show'. But on the subject of too many people. We came to dance. Wake up Mardi gras. Too, too, too many people.
Positive Action - Tue Mar 17 3:38:43 1998
Not interested: Until I hear good reasons why lesbians stop the "eroticism & sensuality" then I will keep attacking what appears to be just unreasonable fear of women - mysogny. The dance floors are big enough for all of us.
Panther - Tue Mar 17 8:59:44 1998
sorry luvs but i must admit that their is a strong feeling that we need our own space. This does not mean we have no respect for our sisters just that we are as male into loving males need a space of our own . To many times when venues have been open to gay males and females the intimacy of the venue disappears and you may as well open them up to the hetrosexual world. Again sorry luvs but I do feel that there is a place for our two cultures to mix and places that should be for either male or female.
mikey - Tue Mar 17 12:51:46 1998
Mikey: I do not deny that there is a strong feeling. I am trying to get people to question why they feel we need it. Unless there is a good reason for a MOS, not just a nebulous feeling, the board probably will not accept it.

General question: Can people feel a difference when a dance floor is predominantly gay and lesbian and when there are tourists there? Do lesbians make the difference, or is it the tourists?
Panther - Tue Mar 17 20:12:38 1998

Some of you make me ashamed to be a gay male - your attitudes towards lesbians are horrific. I really think that many of these attitudes stem from some myth that lesbians have stolen Mardi Gras from gay men. Dykes own Mardi Gras as much as fags do. Yet the reason there is a dyke space is that many lesbians still don't feel comfortable or safe about being at our parties. Can we plese focus on keeping our party gay and lesbian - that's the issue for me!
Tue Mar 17 22:44:24 1998
If you don't feel comfortable Darling, then do not attend Pet! Surely you feel safe in the wimmins area, if not, then the board, by their exclusionist policies, has failed you also, Dear. In reply to Panther's question. Yes, i do feel a differnce when there are both tourists and lesbians on the dancefloor. My reply is why do they want to bother to dance with men who have absolutely no sexual interest in them whatsoever? They drain the ambience and dilute the feelings of raw sexual energy that can only be experienced dancing with and around other men. Has anyone ever been to Twilo in New York??? Now there is a club that exudes raw sexuality, accompanied, of course with fantastic music. To experience the smell and atmosphere of this is amazing. Compare this for instance with certain areas in the Mardi Gras. You have straight gals propped on the shoulers of the boyfriends, strights getting of on amyl and dancing like animals whinging Dykes complaining of the threatening atmosphere, and also creating their own little dancing circles, and men who have to put up with all of it. This attiude of the tourists and Lesbians is also becoming prevalent in other places on Oxford St also. This creates ill feeling. Everyone knows that certain nightclubs and hotels are the best places to go. by these people also wishing to attend they are destroying what they have come to see.If one dares to complain they are labelled women haters or dyke bashers, or even have silly queens telling them they are ashamed to be gay!!! Fair enough, being gay is after all a guy thing, or will this be taken away from us also????. There I have said it.
Please clear the dancefloor of those unwanted types, rather soon if possible - Wed Mar 18 0:02:41 1998
I have read the above banter and would like to add the thoughts of a straight male to your discussion. As a non-discriminatory member of the human-race hopefully you will publish my views. First - if you discriminate against any part of the community you hold yourself out to all the negative comment and any associated discrimination tags people wish to give you. (The very thing the gay and lesbian community have sought to extinguish.) Second - The only way to get anyone to accept you for what you are is to allow them to see you for what you are. Those that can't or won't accept will eventually be the minority and won't participate. (How long this would take is anyone's guess) Third and last - If you hide yourself from society, society will become suspicious of you and your actions. Why? Because people are frightened of what they don't understand and the less they see the less they understand. (For god's sake get over the gay lesbian and straight shit and get on with doing what makes you happy)
Just my thoughts - Wed Mar 18 0:09:16 1998
As a gay man I totally agree with the sentiments above!!
Wed Mar 18 1:50:51 1998
Panther you miss the point
Stony Chute - Wed Mar 18 2:45:14 1998
No one has mentioned that the real reason that Mardi Gras will not allow a men only pavilion, is that there is a possibility of eroticism melting into lust on the dance floor. Mardi Gras is very worried about tabloid headlines like "Sleaze Ball Orgy". And I thought it was a private party.
Stony Chute - Wed Mar 18 2:58:51 1998
Well who wants to see other men doing it on the dance floor - as a gay man I certainly don't. Keep that in the bedroom!! That is the only reason most of you guys want a MOS - so you can get your rocks off. What a bunch of desperate losers.
Wed Mar 18 9:10:47 1998
Who said anything about getting it off on the dance floor, Dear??? It is so typical that people like you, with nothing better to say, have to resort to calling others losers, just because they do not agree with the views expressed. If we wanted a space that resembled a backroom sex club we would ask for it, Sweetie..........
Do you want glory holes with that???? - Wed Mar 18 18:52:03 1998
I would have thought it rather simple: most of us agree that there is an energy that is destroyed when you put straights into a gay club. In the same way dykes destroy the energy of an all male space, and gay men destroy the energy of a lesbian space. So have a dyke space and gay space and a mixed space. What's the problem?
just get on with it - Wed Mar 18 21:57:12 1998
I think Mardi Gras was trying (in a rather unsubtle way) to tell us guys by putting a DJ in the toilets that we already have our own space, and have had for years. Well try and understand MG that most of the men who want a men only space want to Dance Dance Dance there, not fight for space in a heaving mass of bodies. What about just putting someone on the door at the Dome, like happens at the Dyke bar, and make the men's space. Would have thought that easy to do.
Solution - Wed Mar 18 22:01:41 1998
Mardi Gras is not about just dancing. It is a party for all gay and lesbian B/S and Tranny etc, It is one of the few events that I attend and the reason for that is that I have a life outside of the gay community, along with many, many others. As each year passes it is becomming more routine and more boring. Remember that the night is not so much "in your face" as it is.................................................... "Down ya Throat" We need to remember this....?
less drugs & more sparkle ! - Thu Mar 19 4:51:44 1998
Just remember that only 25% that go to partys are Women. In my book that gives us Men a better stand on the issue. Would the partys survive without us? MOS in toilets was a slap in the face!!!!! MG WAKE UP!!!!!
Craig - Thu Mar 19 8:50:28 1998
75% means that most of the party is a MOS already!
Thu Mar 19 8:54:35 1998
the issue is not a men's only space, it's a striaght free party the party is for gay/lesbian/queer/etc, nowhere on the poster,ticket, or mardi gras guide do I see the words "straights welcome". leather pride puts on the best parties now as it is for gay/lesbian/etc people and all those daggy straight boys and their bimbo slutgirlfriends stay well away. Thank God.
leatherman - Thu Mar 19 12:24:23 1998
Leather Pride Inquisition party 23 May in the Dome. the best and only gay danceparty to go to these days.Watch out Mardi Gras. Straights are too scared to attend. But lots of leather-clad men and dykes.
gayleatherperson - Thu Mar 19 12:28:43 1998
Oh deary me, most of you boys are just that, little boys. Can't dance when they see a lesbian, can't feel erotic cause lesbians are dancing in a circle..oh dear, you certainly are intellectualy and emotionally retarded, just like straight men, gay men are just the same...Your all sh.t heads in the end. Have your own party, exclude women like you want in most of your bars, fu.k eachother stupid and when you all get aids from your filthly sex habits don't expect lesbians to wipe your asses.
Stoopid Wall in the 1st place - Thu Mar 19 18:43:36 1998
Please have a Men only space, and please men stay out of the Women only space....it always has guys in it, but we don't whine about that do we? why not just separate men and women entirely, men can have the Northern Hemisphere, and Women can have the Southern Hemispere. You'll all die off up there, and we'll clone and kill the boy babies....Simple lads...
Welcoming the female only millenium - Thu Mar 19 18:48:47 1998
I want an ugly people only space, i can't feel erotic with perfect teeth, bodies and faces dancing around me. When all those pretty people get near me, I just feel uglier and can't be myself. I think pretty people are taking over every goddamm board on earth and pushing their pretty agenda. I mean can you buy fat clothes for mardi gras..as 75% of the people who attend the party are ugly, we want our own space. There should be a doorperson who excludes anyone who is remotely attractive, or even smells nice. Let's face it us ugly dags where on Oxford Street long before you pretty ones. We don't want to be laughed at while we are masturbating on the dance floor, we are sick of pretty people making us feel uncomfortable
Plug Ugly - Thu Mar 19 18:56:43 1998
Well that's just great isn't it all. Gay men talking about lesbians and straight people as though they're the scum of the earth — or did you just mean the ones who aren't friends of yours? — and I presume a lesbian hoping we all get AIDS and die off. Great. Happy bloody Mardi Gras. Why don't you all calm down a bit and start thinking. This wall is starting to read like godhatesfags.com or one of those other Right Wing yankee sites. How about providing some positive reasons for wanting an MOS.
Queer Coalitionist - Thu Mar 19 22:33:26 1998
Panther, That was a delightful site................! Now that we have the answers, could we please move onto the next topic.?
"just a little deeper now" - Thu Mar 19 22:58:53 1998
I think you are all missing the big picture. The significance of a MOS, or a gay mardi gra for that matter, in what's important in life: Not Much At All. Focus your energy onto something more constructive. If all you can do is argue about a MOS then you lead very shallow lives.
Fri Mar 20 2:40:10 1998
Let's promote diversity! Diversity means recognising and accepting difference. Some of us on some occasions want a dance space where men, women, straight, gay, bi, trans mix together. Some of us (I am one of those), some of the time, want a space for men only. This is about a dance party. Pleasure. We can't pretent we want to be PC all the time. Even some radical separatist feminists in the heydays of the 60s admitted that they occasionally liked to be dominated and rooted by a strong man!!!! So why do we have to pretend we like being PC all the time, and let contextual debates spill over into each other. OK it's only a dance party, fun, pleasure, for one, two or three nights of a year. Let's recognize diversity by creating choice. Lets have a space for everyone; and other spaces only for men and only for women. Or at least give it a go at one party and see what happens. The other aspect of this that stinks is the perceived arrogance of the MG Board. It has become reified - out of touch with its grass roots. Its reform should be a number one priority. And lets stop defining each other's reality.....only the availabltity of choice can mean we allow each other to enjoy ourselves the way we want at our dance parties.
Let's have choice - Fri Mar 20 10:47:56 1998
The first Lesbian comment on the issue and she tells us that she hopes we all die of aids. This is uncalled for, upsetting and irrelevant to the present debate. We are not talking of separatism Darling, we just want our own space, you can have yours, and there is a mixed hall for all the others.You may not express a desire to wipe my arse, however I express absolutely no inclination to wipe your gaping pussy, Honey. Your comments are so typical of many Dykes in that they cannot see the other side of things, so just face the facts, Dear, that men will always be around and some co-operation and understanding on your part may just perhaps "constructively" add to the MOS debate.
I dislike comments such as this. You should be spending your time waxing your hairy legs, muff muncher!! - Fri Mar 20 11:19:05 1998
Geez theres a lot of misogyny out there!!! I'm opposed to a boyz only space because we already occupy about 75% of all other dance spaces and other spaces at the Party anyway. We do not need any positive discrimination. And if a MOS was designated, which pavillion would be taken over by the boyz, the Hordern or the RHI? Gee, if I were a lesbian paying just as much for a ticket as the boyz I think I'd feel a tad pissed off, and totally marginalised by those I thought were my own people. Mardi Gras party would simply be continuing the inequalities which already exist against women and access to space. Sorry, but I just cannot see how you can't create an 'erotically charged' atmosphere if there are lesbians nearby. Unless of course you just hate women, which seems to be the case for some of the people on this board. You are also making a big assumption that everyone (gay or lesbian) is comfortable with explicit sex on the dancefloor (I happen to be very much in favour, but it doesn't make me right and others wrong). My feelings are that Mardi Gras is a night of joyous celebration of our tribe of same sex lovers (of all genders), where there are opportunities for lots of in ya face eroticism, lots of dancing, mingling and pleasure. If you want a different, all male atmosphere, and you aren't really there to celebrate with your gay sisters as well, then go and start up a male only dance party. But leave Mardi Gras and all that it stands for, and which was bugun by men and women, alone. And don't spin the crap that the party was initiated by men, and therefore we can maintain control; yeah it was initiated by men, and they happened to be cops who wanted some way of clearing the streets of people after the parade. .
Keanu - Fri Mar 20 15:46:50 1998
PS. Do the boyz who can't suck cock because a lesbian might be nearby also feel the same about drag queens, or is it just the notion of a nerarby vagina which turns you off ya tucker? Presumably the male separatists would exclude drags and trannies from their men only space too. Gee its really looking good, guys ?!
Keanu again - Fri Mar 20 15:53:43 1998
Keanu- Exactly what does Mardi-Gras stand for these days.....?
Fri Mar 20 20:12:35 1998
I have a solution that just may work, If given the choice between being part of the hetro-sexual or homo-sexual community "which one would you prefer" and why..? To my knowledge I agreed to nothing else when I chose to join this community.
Fri Mar 20 20:40:06 1998
Look, frankly boys we "hairy muff munchers" are over all your whining..why don't you all join Mardi Gras committee, put in all the hours it takes to be on the board, and vote for your "men only" universe. You put down all the women on the Mardi Gras board and run around shrieking "lesbian takeover", those nasty lesbians won't let us play with eachothers bottoms on the dance floor, boo hoo....well do something about it, you go and regain your "male Mardi Gras", as I said put in the hours work and be subversive. But no, then you'd have nothing to whinge about. I wish every lesbian would put her energy into "lesbian only" things...then see how your little "gay community" would work,, yeah let's get every woman working to save your withering numbers, put her energy into breast or cervical cancer or something that concerns the "lesbian" community. I'm sory but you need us more than we need you, and let's face it you've lost most of your shining stars....So much money is spent on advertising AIDS information in the gay press, at ACON, a bloody lesbian even gives up her 70th birthday for you...havn't you guys got the message yet???How much longer are you going to waste our time, money and energy educating gay men that casual unprotected sex will eventually kill them? Are you all thick?? And now you want another space to let loose in, have sex on the floor at a Mardi Gras Party, I don't want to see thousands of new infections before my very eyes. Why does everything gay men do have to revolve around "sex" anyway? Mardi Gras is about celebrating the quuer culture...not about f*cking yourself stupid (what it has become). Have some dignity lads, keep your dicks in your pants for a change and use your heads. Take your lovers home and have protected sex in privacy, you know there is a thing called "love", and I'm sure there are a few gay men who still truly want to have a good relationship with anothere man, not just a quick poke on a dancefloor with someone they don't even know...Maybe then we all can party together in the spirit that was intended for Mardi Gras in the first place. Don't give us the crap about "lesbian Takeover" look at who the 78er's were who conceived the whole thing, there's was not a "how many butts can I root" agenda, but basically a civil rights demonstration for freedom to be a poof or a dyke in this society. I think we should abolish the women's space as well, downscale the party, make it queer only and be joyous..let's face it Mardi Gras does nothing for the community anymore really, it's lost it's true meaning and goals and turned into a media circus and a big money puller...for who knows ???The Kebab shop on Oxford Street and lots of "straight" travel companies and hotels. The whole thing is a sham, and any "only" space is just making it worse...Have sex on the floor at the Den or the millions of other venues you have that don't allow women entry, save your own lives, think with your brains, not your dicks.
Big Gash muff munchin, smelly this or that,dyke,pussy whatever,ithink i've covered all the namesuwillcall me - Sat Mar 21 5:28:13 1998
Big Gash...... your above "rant" is thankfully limited to a small percentage of mindless idiots to be found on both sides of the sexes.
"oxygen bandit" - Sat Mar 21 8:57:40 1998
This debate is getting very heated and abusive. Would everyone who is thinking of making an abusive or personal comment please refrain. Please limit your comments to the topic. Remember that we are all part of a very diverse community. It is only by talking together that we can come to consensus.

There are some ideas coming out of the debate, so it may be worthwhile after all.
Panther - Sat Mar 21 9:51:26 1998

I find this bantering counter-productive and insulting to anyone with an ounce of intelligence. *Stop* the bitching, be civil about the debate. All this name-calling tells me more about the caller than the intended victim. Why do we need a MOS? Well, some people do feel uncomfortable getting off with women around, some don't. I personally don't have a problem with it. What is all the who-ha about anyway? Do some research, find your results, and put them in place.
GetOnWithIt! - Sat Mar 21 10:32:04 1998
I agree with the comments of "big gash lesbian muff muncher" above. To my mind too many gay men seem preoccupied with anonymous casual sex. This occurs in many places, however I do feel that on the dancefloor is not appropriate.The celebration of Mardi Gras, these days, pushes no real civil rights message, and really is an excuse for days of mindless partying. I attended the party and left at about 5 AM, rested and then went out for a casual lunch. I was horrified to learn that many people had not been home at all, were still ordering drinks, and looking totally drug *ucked at 5 in the afternoon, hanging out in the Flinders lane and getting pass outs from the saunas, where they would chmp on any penis that was swayed in their face. What is worse is that these people were still at it early into Monday morning!!There is nothing to be proud of in this. The days of anonymous sex with numerous partners is still flourishing, and I know how much of it is unprotected. It is not the responsibility of the mardi gras board to force the safe sex message down the throats of others, rather they have the information and condoms available for those who desire it. My point is that too many people are only interested in casual encounters, but when the party is over they go back to their lonely lives, probably standing around the outside walls of the shift waiting for some trade. It should be a night of immense pride, with good friends, on an erotically charged dancefloor (and I do not mean sex acts), instead it has become for some a marathon of anonymous encounters, binge drinking, bloodshot eyes, mainstream, too straight, predictable. I am attending the next meeting and I propose to mention these things, as well as scaling the party down to 12,000.With three halls, one for men one for women and a mixed space for shows
I feel that my contribution is of some substance - Sat Mar 21 11:23:54 1998
For too long now, other people have tried to define my reality-what I 'should' or 'should not' feel, do, etc. So what if 'too many gay men seem preoccupied with annonymous casual sex'! That is their business, not yours. Non-heterosexuals are discriminated against because we do not conform to others' (heterosexuals) standards. Yet here we are on Pinkboard - defining each other with 'shoulds'. Haven't you as a gay man or lesbian had enough? Why can't we accept the wide diversity within our community - some like annon cas sex, others do not. You entirely miss the point if you believe that some men want a MOS so they can have sex. Yes, there are plenty of other places for sex (not ruling out the dance floor) - but importantly, the creating of ambience by the composition of the participants surely is a choice we can exercise once in a while without being branded by those within our (g and l)community.
Let's have choice - Sat Mar 21 15:15:17 1998
I want a MOS, not to get away from Dykes (I have fun partying with 'em) and not to get away from straights (the same can't be said), but so I can dance and cruise and enjoy the manly sexual energy that I get in an all male area. It's not that I want to have sex on the dance floor (nothing against it) it's not for me.
Sat Mar 21 17:00:26 1998
It would seem apparent that the only real reason that anybody should be at any event within the community is because they want to. If the community as individuals, is to give back anything... Acceptance from within our community should always be first.
100% - Sat Mar 21 19:03:59 1998
Please have sex safely.
Sun Mar 22 13:01:57 1998
I agree with the idea of a MOS for the same reasons that a lot of others do. To dance. Not to have sex. My party is for my friends, and I want to spend some time dancing with my dyke friends, and would also like the option to dance in a male only environment. Reading most of these comments on this wall makes me ashamed to be a part of the gay and lesbian community. On both sides there is needless name calling and pettyness. We ask the straight community to leave us alone and let us have our fun our way. Our sexulaity is as valid as theirs. Well the same should go for gays and lesbains. Get this guys : lesbians have a valid sexuality and should be free to associate how they choose. Lesbians : gay men have the same rights to freedom of association. There need not be any threat from a MOS or a WOS. Different spaces have different atmospheres. Why can't we all just live together in a way that allows us to celebrate both our joint community and our uniqueness?
One community. - Sun Mar 22 19:28:11 1998
The right to express a point of view comes with the responsibility to express it in a mature way that enhances debate. If you don't think so then why do we have anti-vilification legislation? Panther, this wall is a disgrace. Only some of the comments seem to lead to a healthy debate. Most of the comments show that the writers don't deserve a forum such as this to "discuss" issues. As much as you might like to think the comments will get better, I somehow doubt it. I certainly like what you are doing for the community, so don't get me wrong, but I don't think I'll bother visiting here again.
Maturity please - Sun Mar 22 19:39:16 1998
Whatever happened to the recognition that the genders are physiologically different? Big Gash wants guys to behave like nesting women; Why does she think men created beats? This is a huge part of men getting together (even straights: MSMs). I am all for a lesbian space so they can have the atmosphere they want. I am also for a mens' space for the same reason (no discrimination). I am also for the majority of the party being mixed (including some sexuality mixing though predominantly lesbian and gay): how do you know straights won't dabble in their respective sexes' spaces? As for only 25% of participants being lesbian, do you really think that lesbians not choosing to come is reason for denying guys the right to get on with other guys without women around (its kind of why I'm gay...)? The loos are a great event, but I've never felt more welcome than Sleaze 1994 when the guys had their own space with cruising maze, bar etc. That was when I really felt at home, then when I felt like it (often) I went back with the dykes and celebrated in the halls. I don't understand why some people are opposed to that.
Andrew - Sun Mar 22 20:57:24 1998
"Maturity Please", so what issue did you choose to discuss in your post, Darling?? It is usual that those with nothing to say only whinge and crap on about those who take the time to post. Happy browsing elsewhere, Honey.
Is maturity please a pseudonym for mature whinger? - Mon Mar 23 10:40:11 1998
I find it extraodinary that people like'Maturity Please' can't express a reasonable opinion in a grown up way without silly bitchy responses — yes, I mean you 'Is maturity please a pseudonym etc.' — from nasty little boys. Are there any gay men contributing to this debate, or just queenie brats. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on this issue, but despite the protestations to the contrary of those most loudly demanding an MOS, I'm afraid I'm seeing not much except rampant misogyny as a reason for wanting one. I think perhaps you should have a space of your own … and the rest of us fellas can party with the grown ups.
GM - Mon Mar 23 20:53:11 1998
Forget the MOS and let's have a Bitchy Queen's Only Space. You know her, cummon rip her to shreds.
H Harper - Tue Mar 24 1:38:13 1998
Well I guess "Maturity Please" just proved the point from the response he got from "pseudonym for mature whinger".
DNP - Tue Mar 24 2:24:02 1998
Unlike maturity.....................Wisdom has no use by date !
"back to the future" - Tue Mar 24 4:51:28 1998
It appears that everything has been said in this debate that will be said. I might as well close this wall.
Panther - Tue Mar 24 8:38:54 1998
Panther, Perhaps another topic ?
suggestions please ! - Tue Mar 24 11:41:36 1998
Yeah panther, let's have a new wall, Why don't you open up the whole can of worms and debate whether coalitionism will ever work in any form, look at Pride ?? Can poofs and dykes really get on together, women want to nestle, men want to *uck, wher is the common ground ? How much longer can the lesbian community support gay men, re: aids ???
Muvver - Tue Mar 24 22:57:59 1998
Stop being driven by your dicks and your egos. The debate about a MOS is just selfish and a waste of time, as is a MOS!!
Wed Mar 25 2:16:16 1998
Pinkboard Graffiti Walls
Pinkboard Graffiti Walls Archive
Pinkboard Home Page
Contact Pinkboard