Love 8: Unconditional

I wanna fall into you
And I wanna be everything
You want me to
But I'm not sure I know how
I lose faith and I lose ground
Then I see you and remember
Unconditional love, love, love
Unconditional love

It doesn't matter what I say
'Cause it always seems you're taking
Me the wrong way
But if you could read my mind you'd see
I fight myself all the time
When I see you I surrender
Unconditional love, love, love
Unconditional love, love

Standing on a wilder shore
I got my head up in the clouds, oh
I ain't got no sense of direction now

I wanna lie next to you
And I wanna do everything you want me to
Sometimes I wish at the sky
I imagine what the clouds look like
When I see you I remember
Unconditional love, love, love
Unconditional love
When I see you I surrender
Unconditional love, love, love
Unconditional love, love, love
When I see you I surrender...
Unconditional love...

C. Lauper, B. Steinberg, T. Kelly
© 1989 Rellla Music Corp. (BMI), Billy Steinberg Music and Denise Barry Music (ASCAP)

Love 7: Breaking Up

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Hey i get to be first. Now that's karma! :)
nik - Fri Nov 3 11:14:34 2000

oh for sure. karma works for the people who get to be first on pinkboard but doesn't work for the 40,000 people killed last year in those earthquakes. I suppose it was karma that they died. lots of them children too.
karma - doesn't exist. good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to good people - Fri Nov 3 13:52:48 2000

I was being semi-sarcastic!!
nik - Fri Nov 3 14:52:03 2000

yeah but there are plenty of other frootloops around here who do believe it
determinist ;) - Fri Nov 3 17:32:32 2000

Well I suppose it is time to give some unconditional love to Free Spirit. His silence is typical of the new age movement who in their ivory tours simplify everything. Nik have you worked out that when ever there is a horrible thing the new ages go silent. I would love to see Louise H get up in front of Ebola victims in Africa and go "oh you have created your own reality." Ok Free S, they created a reality of a hideous virus. How do you uncreate that reality? Oh look Free is silent as always. My advice to those moping over the man or woman who treated you like trash is to forget Karma, wallow in self-pity or get out and meet others and do many of the things the people on here have suggested. But don't blame yourselfs for the partner who treats you like trash, you did not deserve or attract it. So Free Spirit when are you going to make some "you are all to blame expect me" comments? Silence equals consent which means you are stuck in the karma is everything, all powerful and like a watchdog. I know a psychic who is obsessed with it. Funny how her life is turning out crap; I said to her "oh its your karma". Guess what? I got karma back when he said "f off". Anyway I think the board may need to go back to love's losses and other on-topics so I leave you with this: if doesn't matter if you believe in karma or if it turns out to be true - please always think twice before anyone says the breakup is your fault no matter what Free Spirit or others says. So I bid you farewell as I change topic and signature and go to relevant postings. Oh and Nik, please continue your postings they make my day :)
Resin - Sat Nov 4 13:46:31 2000

At last someone who sees things are they really are!
determinist - Sat Nov 4 16:45:56 2000

Agree, karma is not always bad and it is learning and whilst learning is not always smooth, learning not to blame the self is wise
Sun Nov 5 15:05:30 2000

but whats love got to do with it?
tinas turning - Sun Nov 5 16:32:21 2000

Well its a big hit with you Tina.
Ike - Sun Nov 5 18:44:34 2000

i walked into a door
tinas learning - Mon Nov 6 11:33:10 2000

I'm hurting. My LDR is sadly over. I ended it but I feel I was pushed into it. I have feel like i'm in a marshmellow, I can't see any way out and no matter how hard I push and scrape for understanding I can make no progress. I want to get angry but there is no point we just grew apart. I want to cry but there is no one to listen I. I just sound pittiful wimpering to myself. At the moment it feels like not only are we through but so am I. We had unconditional love but that was broken and now so am I. I can't even sign my nick because I'm a pinkboard regular and too many people will know who I am.
PB regular - Tue Nov 7 12:30:09 2000

PB regular - Go easy on yourself. Something similar happened to me a couple of years ago. I know it hurts, like nothing else, and I couldn't understand any of it at the time. Let it out, sweetheart. Things'll be fine in the end, really they will.
Free Spirit - Tue Nov 7 13:52:26 2000

How do you know things will be fine Free Spirit. Maybe they will not be fine.
Tue Nov 7 15:22:10 2000

In India the lower castes are taught and believe that their position in life (as shitkickers) is karma and therefore should be just accepted by them. Karma , like many religious beliefs and dogma is a tool to keep the powerful classes in power and to keep people in their place and ignorant. The new age idiots have got hold of this word which they and have no understanding of what is behind it or maybe they do. It is just organised religion at work. Of course middle class America loves it as they are already brainwashed by religion. It justifies their obsession with money and material possessions and they don't need to feel guilty about their afluence, gained at the expence of poverty in third world countries. It is all quite sickening.
Tue Nov 7 15:38:38 2000

I was not going to answer because I promised not to but I can't help but comment on some of the above postings. Firstly as you can see Free Spirit choses not to answer to others postings on karma therefore that persons choice is to be blind to the possiblity of other realities. The above anon poster, you are correct to a large extent, karma is used to subdue a lot of people on many issues. Unconditional Love, the topic of this wall, means that Free Spirit needs to be loved for who that poster is, even though it is likely we will not meet or we will meet but not know each other's internet nicks. But the questioning of karma is very healthy. Free prefers to have it act as a watchdog. Now I have looked back on Free's postings and I think Free is right too with many comments over the month. So what is the point of raving about this crap? Well, my believe is this: karma is a real concept; we do go though things again and often this does manifest in relationships. But to take karma as a controlling mechanism by New Age people is another form of religious control bathed in origins of guilt. And also in regards to the Indian Caste System, this was also true with the Protestant movement who believed you were damned. So are we as homosexuals and lesbians damned? Well Free Spirit? Karma is an overcoming concept; the fact some of the above posters either make fun of it or believe it is crap shows that it is, repeat for Free, is possible for it to be overcome or is possibly non-existant. P B Regular, I have two friends at the moment were the same thing happen. Now I may grow apart from them but they are part of my life and will always be. Please don't close yourself to the possibility of being with them in some shape or form. Take Free's advice and don't be hard on yourself, that makes sense. I don't look at growing apart as "apart" in the "I won't see you never again". This sort of thinking causes stress and (perhaps it is karma) actually causes it to happen. It may take years, or as Free is right in saying, lifetimes but I intend to be with those people again only things will be better because I choose to have healthy relationships with them. Anyway, to all who post you are all trying to get to unconditional love in the way you understand but please don't use karma as an excuse that it is something that hangs around to punish you like Free has stated. Peace to you and P B Regular, do not obsess over them but never never never give up that it will be healed and you will see them again.
Resin - Tue Nov 7 16:53:36 2000

Tue Nov 7 15:38:38 2000 - I've never thought of it that way. Thank you for enlightening me. But it scares me though that so many things are just religion trying to keep us all in "our place". Scary stuff. We'll just have to be ever more vigilant and realise it's not just Freddy that's out to get us.
Tue Nov 7 18:44:28 2000

The notion of 'karma' is a spiritual version of Newtonian physics which posits, not unreasonably, that to each and every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Both theories assume an orderly and predictable universe. This is also a key assumption of all religions ; Lots of orderly account settling, in this world & the next, what goes around, comes around... Unfortunately, quantam theory, chaos theory, and superstring theory have proven that the universe is wildly more unpredictable than anything like the notion of karma or 'cosmic retributive justice' can describe. Simple theories that imply an orderly and just universe, are as comforting as the fairy tales we cherished as children. In those, the good were rewarded as inevitably as the evil were punished. A comforting notion like....karma...
Tue Nov 7 23:17:31 2000

Exactly.
Resin - Wed Nov 8 10:22:01 2000

Resin Please don’t read anything into my not posting. I may not have logged on or, because it’s been getting too personal, I might have stood aside. Of course I agree that everyone’s entitled to their own beliefs. And this also means that they’re entitled to hold to them and not have them ridiculed. This is the Love wall, after all.
“This religion says this, this one says that,” etc. is often used as a reason to ignore them. Fine, but the root of them all is basically the same, which is that there is a supreme being and that we should all do the right thing. We (gays, lesbians, bi’s and so on) aren’t damned by them up there, by God. We never were (nobody ever is). But some of those who should know better have used their positions of power to say that we were and some still do. It’s easy to see that many religions have horror for us. We can be discriminated against and have in some cases been officially stoned to death or worse. Fortunately for us now, beliefs and understandings have developed quickly, especially in the last few decades, and this has enabled us to gain respect from others and increasingly, for us to live without fear. Our liberation has helped straights too, as they have been able to live without discriminating (if they choose to). And as that happens, more of us can live freely, and so on. As I’ve said before, wonderful things are happening and more and more are choosing to live in harmony. Maybe this will even happen here!
Free Spirit - Wed Nov 8 16:58:09 2000

I made a big mistake of getting involved with someone in my immediate social circle. It was very brief and I fell for her big time, but now that it's over, there's no-one for me to talk to about it, because everyone knows everyone. I feel very lost and I'm desperate for a shoulder to cry on, but for fear of whatever I say becoming misconstrued or making its way back to her (which inevitably it will), I'm forced to try and deal with it alone. It's awful and miserable and I don't know what else to do.
jodie - Wed Nov 8 17:24:12 2000

jodie - Phone your local Gay & Lesbian Counselling Service. They are willing to be a shoulder for you to cry on.
Panther - Wed Nov 8 18:18:59 2000

Thanks to all the people who have said supportive things. You expect people you know to care but its good to know that people I have never met and probably never will care as well. I have talked to heaps of people, taken a bit of time off work and my doctor suggested I go see the Darlinghurst Community Health Centre. I'm normally too proud to use community type services but they were really really really fantastic. I set myself a timetable to talk about it to anyone who would listen yesterday and to spend today focusing on myself and the weekend. I hope I can get through weekend without either getting too reflective or conversly, self destructivly parting too hard. It's gunna be a thin line to tread.
PB Regular - Fri Nov 10 10:11:28 2000

PB Regular - One thing I do at a party if I have something that is playing on my mind: I sit quietly and imagine some way of packaging that problem until later. It seems to work. Ones I have tried are putting it in a box, tying it up in fancy ribbons and stuff and then just leaving it there; also watching the problems grow butterfly wings and then fly away. Party safely.
Panther - Fri Nov 10 19:59:29 2000

Panther you can never have any idea how appropriate those suggestions are. When I first started my relationship I had never been in love before and I was scared about the strange things I was I was feeling. We regarded it as me taking another box off the shelf of my life opening it and us exploring the contents together. I certainly now have some fancy ribbons that I can use to tie that box if I need to. The butterflies is also too scary for words as at the Perth (where we were from) Pride party last week their theme was metamophesis, our flatemate from Perth who is both of our greatest confidant was in charge of the decorations. In each corner of the dance floor there were 4 crysalises and at about 3am the covers were pulled off to reveal 4 butterflies. These butterflies were then slowly winched to the middle of the dancefloor. One of the butterflies was decorated to represent me, one to represent David, one to represent our friend and the fourth was another friend of ours. I diddn't get to go to the party and I doubt anyone who was there knows of the signicance of what happened (I only found out last night). Last weekend my butterfly flew away from me but at least it diddn't turn into a moth. I hope I don't see butterflies (or have them when introducing myself to someone new!!!!!) this weekend cause it will probably mean I had one trip too many. lol Thanks Panther i'll give u a hug if I see you.
PB Regular - Sat Nov 11 10:49:49 2000

Ok ok Free Spirit I relent humbly. My final word is: well each to their own. Still please don't blame yourselves or the other party if you can.
Resin - Sat Nov 11 18:52:17 2000

I read a poem in a newsletter and whilst it may been to some to be unrealistic it helped with my broken hearts. It said about letting go. Let Go is of no help to me when I am going though crushes etc, even at in my thirites. But it states in the poem letting go is not cutting off. Now if your partner is abusive cutting off seems reasonable, but I beleive letting go is exactly that: not the I don't want to see you attitude, but simply a new view on the situation. Also this and the other love boards seems to place burdons on the people who are in relationships or get treated badly. Well I saw a posting in the other wall which made sense: does anyone realise that the person who you fall in love with is having a lesson too. It seems that the people on this wall place great fear on the other person and that is not always true. Sometimes the person you fall in love with and it may not work is some way of protecting you against them. I don't know it sounds like some of the other postings but from reading Resin, Free, Nik and others I am inclined to agree; loving the self is crucial.
Just Reflecting - Mon Nov 13 15:59:38 2000

Just remember .... nothing really matters ...... time will tell BB I do still love and care for u
SB - Tue Nov 14 16:18:25 2000

Yeah and S B if you find someone else love BB anyway.
Tue Nov 14 22:43:04 2000

What you did really did matter SB and it may well be a long long time. I still care for you but you have betrayed our love.
PB Regular - Wed Nov 15 0:36:21 2000

Get someone who deserves your love PB. Rack off SB, you should be racked over the coals for treating someone like that. Mind you I am being generally I don't know the circumstances but you make it everyone's business by posting here. But S B if you did wrong towards P B Regular then you will one day reap the circumstances. Free Spirit is right: karma goes come back. Good luck P B and get yourself someone who deserves your time and energy and leave S B to pay the consequences for betrayal. Again I don't know the story but if this is true S B you cannot treat people like crap.
Resin - Thu Nov 16 13:06:30 2000

S B sounds mean but Resin I agree we don't know the whole story.
Thu Nov 16 13:31:10 2000

People come into your life for a reason, a season, or a lifetime.
When you figure out which it is, you know exactly what to do.

When someone is in your life for a Reason, it is usually to meet a need you have expressed outwardly or inwardly.

They have come to assist you through a difficulty, to provide you with guidance and support, to aid you physically, emotionally, or spiritually.
They may seem like a godsend, and they are.
They are there for the reason you need them to be.
Then, without any wrong doing on your part or at an inconvenient time, this person will say or do something to bring the relationship to an end. Sometimes they die. Sometimes they walk away.
Sometimes they act up or out and force you to take a stand.
What we must realize is that our need has been met, our desire fulfilled; their work is done. The prayer you sent up has been answered and it is now time to move on.

When people come into your life for a Season, it is because your turn has come to share, grow, or learn.
They may bring you an experience of peace or make you laugh.
They may teach you something you have never done.
They usually give you an unbelievable amount of joy.
Believe it. It is real. But, only for a season.

Lifetime relationships teach you lifetime lessons; those things you must build upon in order to have a solid emotional foundation.
Your job is to accept the lesson, love the person/people (anyway); and put what you have learned to use in all other relationships and areas of your life

The Journeys of Life - Thu Nov 16 17:53:31 2000

i hope that many of you thru your journeys of pain and happiness that loves brings us - can read the above, and come to some understanding of why things happen etc.
Its not easy - and somedays i can read it 100 times, and still ask - what lessons i was suppose to learn by meeting the person.
With the topic of Unconditional Love: Isnt it sad that when i gave my last gf such love - that she, due to fear or whatever, believes that such love doesnt exist - and believed that she would lose herself - if she accepted my love.

Its a sad world out here; at the moment *Love to all*
The Journeys of Life - Thu Nov 16 18:00:54 2000

This sort of stuff makes you reach for the sleeping pills or the rope. Yes ok some people do come into your life (perhaps even animals?) and then they leave. Rubbish, they don't leave they are always in my heart. God this is depressing. I don't believe in censoring anyone but Ms Journey or whatever please be happy even for one minute. It may be denial but one minute of happiness is worth 23 hours of depression. Sorry Journey girl but as much as there is wonderful wisdom in what you say please please please don't depress us. I am not denying hurt and pain and suffering: I am just saying "ok sure but hey I am not in the worst situation". Chris, he does not accept my unconditional love because of fear. Too bad now, I still love him but, and I repeat but, that's his problem. She can't accept that love you say? Well tell her to get whatever, it is there problem. See Free Spirit! It is others not always ourselves but you all go on a "oh I am to blame not them" fantasy. There is no, no, no blame in love. We don't deserve pain and suffering and we will not tolerate it for outselves. God Journey you depress me; but, but, but, I still think what you wrote was great. But please let's have an occasional positive side to all this love stuff.
Resin - Thu Nov 16 18:47:00 2000

Just to clear up something that may have been misunderstood when SB - Tue Nov 14 16:18:25 2000 said "nothing really matters" he was refering to one of "our" songs and not being harsh. On other matters I always believed that he was a "lifetime" partner, I can identify with other people I have cared for and know which groups they fit into but he's the only lifetime one.
PB Regular - Thu Nov 16 20:59:27 2000

Bohemian rhapsody was your song?????
Fri Nov 17 6:56:12 2000

re. Journey et al. - Defeatist platitudes.
nik - Fri Nov 17 6:57:19 2000

Re: Resin - Thu Nov 16 18:47:00 2000. I agree that some positive experiences are very much needed here for balance. Falling in love and living in a close relationship can often force us to address issues and emotions about ourselves and other people that perhaps we wouldn't address or maybe deny as single unattached people. This isn't easy for many of us and the result to casual observers can often be one of the tragic,neagative, sometimes hurt, hoplessly lost and lonely romantic love sick people that tend to be stereotyped by some on this board. If we didn't have issues or problems with our love lives (or lack of) and were quite happy and positive about everything, then this board probably wouldn't exist. On a positive side, I've just had a second anniversary with my partner whom I very much love and enjoy the company of. The past few years have been full of "tragedy and negativity" as well as wonderful love and happiness but it's been an experience that I'll never ever regret because my partner and I are together and still very much in love with each other. Both of us are now looking towards the longer term (good and bad times) with a much more mature and hopefully stable outlook on life thanks to our experiences and attempts to try and work out the bad times along with the good times.
cheers - Fri Nov 17 9:55:01 2000

well it is friday and i am seeing a guy i met at sleaze ball. we have been on dates every night this week (which would explain the bags under my eyes!) so i guess here i go again. i pledge right here and now to try and be more tolerant and understanding with this great guy and to try and not f@ck it up like i have with some of the others. at least this has stopped "ekky tuesday" from occurring!
Shaerin Magoodies - Fri Nov 17 16:26:17 2000

LOL
Fri Nov 17 21:26:26 2000

sorry for the outburst of laughter above Shaerin, best of luck : ).
Fri Nov 17 21:27:13 2000

oh that is alright - i'm glad i could bring a smile to your face. guess what, he just called me and said he will pick me up from work and take me home, give me a bath and then take me to bed. now i am nervous and excited all at the same time. i have never been bathed by someone else before, talk about being intimate! well here goes...
Shaerin - Fri Nov 17 22:34:13 2000

oh luv send him over after your finished : )
Sat Nov 18 12:42:48 2000

well here it is the day after and i have been bathed (and shagged, but that's bragging) i just realised i cannot be in "love" just yet as i have not memorized his phone number (a good indication if ever there was one). and of course my friends got all shirty with me because i didn't go out with them last night.
Shaerin - Sat Nov 18 19:01:53 2000

Oh dear! LOL
Sat Nov 18 22:31:28 2000

Not fair, I wanna change my nick to Shaerin just in case his boy get us mixed up and comes over and pampers me. lol. and just cause you havn't memorised his number means nothing I bet youv'e got it programed into your phone so you don't have to remember it. Best of luck and lots of bubble baths. hehehehehehe
BND - Sun Nov 19 2:59:56 2000

Shaerin, girl, you come back here anytime soon all whiney-ass 'bout how you got your heart broke yet again by Mister Right-Now, and I'm gonna whup yo boney bitch butt. Don't you worry none 'bout remembering his number, try remembering what a sorry sad suffering single white socialite you be on your miserable ownsome.
Ma Magoodies - Mon Nov 20 0:58:33 2000

I just don't understand how someone could do that to another human being.... they whirl into your life and tell you that they've had this massive crush on you for months, and you're stoked because they've been your buddy for months and there's no-one else that you respect and admire more..... and then when you get together it's a dream come true - you can finally be yourself, and they tell you that they're falling in love with you and that they've never fallen this hard before, and they're so happy etc etc etc.... then they just cut you off for no reason and finally you confront them and they tell you some issues from their past have come back to haunt them and they need to sort them out but that it will all be OK in the end.... and they promise to call you as soon as they've sorted themselves out.... and they cry in front of you and you truly believe there are things beyond their control that are eating them up and you feel so sorry for them, and sad, but you stick by them and you talk on the phone, ask how they're doing.... and then you find out 3 weeks later from someone else that the whole time they've been seeing someone else and have lied about everything.... lied to your face about where they were and what they've been feeling.... and you just feel like someone has tipped a tonne of bricks over your head.... feel like your heart has been wrenched out of your chest and smashed into a million pieces... you feel sick to the stomach.... and your confidence is shattered... your self esteem destroyed.... you can never trust anyone else again....
lilmiss - Mon Nov 20 13:27:35 2000

Besides a little fling when I was coming out, I have never had a boyf and that was 20 years ago. Nobody loves me, I wanna be in a relationship. Why do boys at the gym/in the street etc make eye contact but if you turn and look they bolt. I may not be Brad Pitt but not ugly............ I wanna a relationship..............
Boooooo Hooooooooo - Mon Nov 20 13:41:19 2000

Lilmiss, learning that there are people like the emotional sociopath you've encountered is a painful but often necessary lesson in the emotional curriculum. Two things to remember about that lesson: By learning the truth sooner than later you were spared considerable hardship, and entanglement that a longer deception might have entailed. Congratulate yourself for being, however reluctantly, a quick learner in a lesson you'll remember for the rest of your life. That being said, it's also important to realise that emotional sociopaths are reasonably rare and need not permanently damage your future ability to trust others more worthy of your affections. Now that you've met one you have a superior ability to detect someone with a borderline personality disorder, but it's important that you remember how effective the "whirlwind romance" aspect of the deception was in disarming your judgement. If you just remember the hurt it eventually caused, you may fail to recognise the seductiveness of that "too good to be true" modus operandi. Real romance requires no suspension of your disbelief, and I hope you'll encounter, sooner than later, a down to earth, warts & all example of that imperfect miracle. Peace.
Hard 'n Chillin - Mon Nov 20 15:55:23 2000

lilmiss - Good advice from H'n'C. What you need to do now, though, is look after yourself and get to the stage where you are feeling human again. Cry on friend's shoulders and pamper yourself. Have a look back through the walls for some suggestions.
Panther - Mon Nov 20 19:31:42 2000

Boooooo Hooooooooo - There may be many reasons you aren't finding the relationship you want: maybe you are not looking in the right places; maybe you are looking for Mr Perfect rather than Mr Right; maybe you just haven't found him yet. I suggest you talk to a counsellor about this. Your local Gay and Lesbian Counselling Service is a good place to start.
Panther - Mon Nov 20 19:35:10 2000

BND - please call me as i would like to accept the offer you made to me privately. you have my number.
Shaerin - Mon Nov 20 23:29:57 2000

You'll cry, spit poison, laugh, get depressed, act totally out of character, try for revenge, act cool, maybe have lots of little flings, fall in love again, go back, leave again, yell, try to manipulate, question your looks, age, sexual abilities, sexuality, talk to your mother at 3am after a drunken night at the sauna (oops a bit personal there), and you will still feel like shit and nothing no-one does or says and nothing you do or stop doing will make you feel at ease, but then later on after many days, weeks, years things will become clearer the fog will lift and although you will be cautious you will love again but this time you will be armed, but 1st 2nd or 3rd love still hurts it just gets easier to deal with, just remember there are no unlovable people, and no matter how you feel you are never alone. Happy are those who dream dreams and are willing to pay the price to see them come true. Thickshakes and Mudcake help - Thu Jun 3 0:04:09 1999 Saw this on the here last year and thought I would repost it. To whoever wrote it thaks it gives me strength.
PB Regular - Tue Nov 21 22:55:11 2000

How are you supposed to find a Boyfriend when Mardi Gras dont supply a designated sex area at sleaze ball.I'm all in a huff now !!
*sigh* - Wed Nov 22 0:40:53 2000

that may be your problem - you are confusing boyfriend with casual sex partner. the two are not the same, one provides regular heartache, sex and sometimes love the other doesn't. :))
Wed Nov 22 15:49:09 2000

"you've encountered is a painful but often necessary lesson in the emotional curriculum". H & C such rubbish but the rest of your posting is good. To the person who this happened to I know I have been there and gotten dump and got more crap like it is a lesson in the "curriculum" new age trash onto me. H & C make good points but you did not need to learn this and the person who did it to you is cruel and wrong. Forgive them only if you want and don't feel it was your fault, because in spite of Hay & Co and the Karma Preachers you did not deserve it. I am sorry you went though that and good luck for the future.
Resin - Wed Nov 22 20:12:27 2000

Resin, manipulative and deceptive people are part of the social, sexual, romantic, financial, and spiritual landscape. Learning about them, and ones own ability to be deceived is never pleasant, but for many of us it has been a necessary part of the process of gaining wisdom. Your view that this is "rubbish" is hopefully based on your having never encountered the type of sociopath described. For those of us who have it is important to learn from the experience, in order not to repeat the lesson unnecessarily. It is equally important for a trusting person not to become so doubtful of their judgement after encountering an adept deceiver that they are unable to extend trust to others, more deserving, in the future. Your confusion of me with some 'forgiving', 'new age' type says more about your antpathy to that attitude than it does about my posting. I never advocated forgiving the sociopath, and in no way suggested that lilmiss in any way deserved what happened. Nonetheless, when one encounters the type of wilful deceit described, salvaging wisdom and a future ability to trust are important challenges. No one "needs" to learn lifes harsher lessons, but if one is forced to it is "painful but often necessary" (my words) to take from the experience whatever value one may. That, not some notion of 'karmic acceptance',was what I suggested. My post on karma- (7/11 23:17) was, interestingly, not "rubbish" at all, in your view...Peace.
Hard 'n Chillin - Thu Nov 23 1:32:12 2000

Yes, all that is true but it's just such a damn shame that nice, loving, true people have to be irrevocably changed by some F*cked-up ego-maniac. It's just not fair!! The nice people are far and few between and these slime balls have to try and drag them down into the mire. I think for some of them (the slime balls)it's like some kind of a trophy. Nice guys finish last unfortunately.
nik - Thu Nov 23 8:25:58 2000

Instead of analysing life, whats the reason, whats the message, blah blah blah, why not just enjoy living it.Perhaps thats the message. If people in your life bring pain and heartache why not get them out of your life. Maybe the purpose is for you to get over it and get a healthier emotional life.
Thu Nov 23 8:55:52 2000

Thu Nov 23 8:55:52 2000 - Does everything have to have a purpose? Can't we just enjoy life without worrying about purpose?
Panther - Thu Nov 23 9:15:16 2000

um, panther that is what he/she is saying - just live life and try to enjoy the life you are living.
Thu Nov 23 21:54:45 2000

Enjoying life, without worrying about 'purpose' is fine and well while life happens to be enjoyable. Occaisionally though life can be quite difficult for just about everyone. During those difficult times (death, illness, loss etc.) its kinda inevitable that people contemplate weightier issues than good old enjoyment. Purpose, direction, goals, beliefs etc. are among those things that people often find themselves contemplating at lifes more err... challenging moments. And in some ways it's a shame that these thoughts, which are important, are often relegated to times of difficulty, and ignored while life is enjoyable. Simply enjoying life is a perfectly admirable goal, but theres nothing wrong with thinking about its curlier quandries every now & then. And doing so while things are going well may find a person better equipped for times when they aren't...Just a thought...to enjoy :)
Fri Nov 24 0:18:26 2000

you misunderstand my use of the term "enjoy" i meant by enjoying life, doing things that enrich your life rather than things that don't make you happy. "enjoy" is not synonomous with'hedonism" For instance working for a political group that brings about positive change for people or caring for a sick friend i would consider enjoyable things as they enhance my life.What i meant was one does not have to look for the meaning in everything, every interaction in some cosmic way.Life is a process and the meaning of different events may not come to our awareness until years after the event.
Fri Nov 24 11:38:57 2000

Balance, it's all about balance. Balanced life, love, attitude, emotions, work, rest, play, diet etc etc is the key. Beware of those that tend to ignore balance in their lives (ie: "I love to party all the time" or "I must work non-stop" or "I don't socialise" etc etc). They tend not to be good lovers.
Dynamic Equilibrium - Fri Nov 24 11:45:53 2000

candlelight vigil tonight lets get out of ourselves for a moment and remember those who cant bitch anymore!
love ya gn. - Sun Nov 26 16:47:24 2000

ok so two weeks later and i am still seeing the guy i met at sleaze... and we actually like eachother quite a lot. had a great day at the food fair in hyde park yesterday and went to the beach today. i think i impressed him with my surfing skills. and yes i now know his mobile phone number off by heart.
Shaerin Magoodies - Sun Nov 26 19:32:24 2000

Shaerin can surf ?
Pa Magoodies - Mon Nov 27 20:11:19 2000

Shaerin is also cute *wink*
BND - Mon Nov 27 20:42:08 2000

BND, i didn't realise you thought so, but for the record I thought you were a big spunk! and yes i can surf, it is just such a shame that we have to wear wetsuits, they cover all the good bits!
Shaerin - Wed Nov 29 16:11:42 2000

Speak for yourself Shaerin, I look way better in my wetsuit because it hides so many bad bits! Skinny legs, slab-as-opposed-to-a-6-pack, scars, 2 really ordinary tattoos...the list goes on and on. If a steamer wasn't so hot, (& false advertising to rubber fetishists) I'd almost wear it clubbing.Happy barrelling, dude.
H&C - Thu Nov 30 0:09:32 2000

i was actually speaking about other surfers good bits. and i think there is nothing wrong with scars and tattoos, in fact both have been known to inflame my passions!
Shaerin - Thu Nov 30 22:51:58 2000

Yes and we all know which particular scar inflames your passions Shaerin!!! ;)
BND - Fri Dec 1 20:51:38 2000

i would like to appear shocked and horrified at the above comments, but i know i am too much of a scrubber to pull that off. oh well...
Shaerin Magoodies - Fri Dec 1 22:24:49 2000

love is- playstation 2 oh baby you've come home to me i will play,stroke and fondle you daily all i ask is you and lara be tru to me.
ms croft 4 ever - Sat Dec 2 0:13:41 2000

Appendix ? Acne ? Animal bite ? Broken bottle ? Circumcision ? Knife wound ? You gotta passion, I gotta scar. They (the un-scarred) say scars make your body more interesting, and if thats true I must be abso-bloody-loutely fascinating...
Scarface - Sat Dec 2 0:24:00 2000

nothing like ripping the end of your penis off to make you look special : )
Sat Dec 2 17:58:54 2000

I've been in a very intense and complicated relationship for several years now with someone whom I love very much (and they love me also). I gave as much commitment, care, understanding, support and unconditional love as I could give. Now after the initial "honeymoon" is over (and at times it was great) I'm beginning to see that my partner isn't as compatible with me as I first thought and that he's not ready for the the type of relationship that we both initially sought. It's his first relationship and perhaps I think he needs his freedom there to explore his life with a bit more independence than I can offer him or tolerate. I did a stupid thing with this relationship, I isolated myself from other friends and an active social life (although a social butterfly I never was) and now I feel like I'm hanging on to this relationship in a codependent way (I've been there and done that in the past, and never learnt my lesson then). I have this false hope that things will get better but I don't think they will and fears of lonliness and rejection haunt me. My brain is telling me to let go and let my partner explore his options a bit more on his own but I am very ambivalent about things and afraid to do so. My partner won't let go (but won't contribute to any significant commitment or compromise in the relationship either) and I feel quite miserable, frustrated and at times very unhappy about our situation. I feel guilty for getting so deep into this relationship. Any suggestions from those who have experienced similar situations?
Confession - Sun Dec 3 5:46:47 2000

What goes around comes around!
swerving - Sun Dec 3 8:46:52 2000

RE:confession If he won't give you commitment why do you give it to him? This is a doule standard. Just live your life the way you want to and if he doesn't like it to bad for him.
swerving - Sun Dec 3 8:52:43 2000

Confession - Sun Dec 3 5:46:47 2000 I'm a believer that given the chance love can conquer all. If you have been together for a couple of years then I think you at least owe it a bit of time to try and make it better. You both need to make an effort, its not his fault you have lost contact with your friends and perhaps he is happy being with you and doesn't want to explore other relationships (you did say he diddn't want to let go). The most important thing to do is to talk to him honestly, face to face and tell him what you want and ask him what he wants from the relationship rather than second guessing. To me it sounds as though your desire to give him freedom is an excuse to run away.
BND - Sun Dec 3 13:57:43 2000

Confession - Something else you can do is see if you can get back into contact with your old friends, or start making some new friends.
Panther - Sun Dec 3 15:44:59 2000

Love...Whatever...When all the gay guys "On The Scene" sorry that is not groovy enough, OTS, are only interested in screwing each other and could not give a shit aoubt who they hurt in the process who cares for it. Gays don't love they just have sex...
The one who knows. - Sun Dec 3 18:42:27 2000

Confession - Sounds like your boyfriend of several years wants to explore a more 'open relationship' and you're not comfortable with that development. Unfortunately he's probably already exploring whether you like it or not and that means you have a couple choices: 1)You can be whiney & clingy and drive him away with rules he's no longer willing to obey. 2) You can tell him it's been fab, but this isn't where you want to go and leave him immediately to find someone more monogamous. 3) You can accept that most males are sexually polygamous and decide that this very normal "flaw" isn't worth losing an otherwise good relationship over. If you decide on the latter it of course also gives you permission to do some exploring on the open market as well. That can lead to several interesting developments:1)Your boyfriend becomes re-acquainted with his own jealousy & decides "open relationships" aren't such a good idea after all. 2) You come to terms with your own jealousy by seeing how meaningless but fun this casual sex caper is. 3) After becoming socially isolated and co-dependant, you start making new buddies & become less dependant. 4) In your open market exploration you find a new love interest. In my experience, as difficult as it seems, it's better to "allow" people do what they're going to do anyway. You end up seeming wise & open minded and secure in your own identity, and you get some breathing space to get re-acquainted with the outside world yourself. Be prepared to let go. But make it on terms that allow you time to adjust.
H&C - Mon Dec 4 1:53:57 2000

I'm sorry my post seems to confirm "one who knows" pessimistic outlook about guys & sex, but I don't think it's a gay specific characteristic. I think most guys, gay and straight, are capable of enduring emotional monogamy and their propensity for occaisional sexual polygamy need not rule their abilty to love, invalid.
H&C - Mon Dec 4 2:11:16 2000

Thanks to those who've commented re Confession. Sometimes it's easy to feel locked in to a situation or problems that there seems no respite or solutions to. I've realised over the last few days that I have to start living "my" life the way I want to (with responsibility for myself give or take a little to fit in with my partner who has to take his own responsibilty for his life also) and not to get too stressed about whether or not the relationship works. I realise that I don't have to demonstrate commitment if my partner won't. Socially I will be resurrecting a life again which my partner is always welcome to share in but which I will be doing with or without him whether he likes that or not. Thanks again everyone for your advice.
Confession - Mon Dec 4 11:35:39 2000

i found it strange it took several years to realise you arent compatible, and after several years he didnt want to commit??
Mon Dec 4 13:27:53 2000

It's not so strange. It's not until usually when the "honeymoon" period is over that you see things for what they really are. There is much love there, love and commitment don't neccessarily go together but they can coexist and I suppose it also depends on what one defines (or anticipates) commitment as?
Confession - Mon Dec 4 14:09:46 2000

Just out of interest what is your defintion of commitment?
Tue Dec 5 13:09:25 2000

I have a rather strange well not problem but some think it is. I am 24yo, hung, gym built and I get the young ones with no problem. I do have an attitude and except quality in the guys I sleep with. But over the past six months I have been having sex at the saunas with old to very old wrinkle men and fat overweight slobs. What is the problem? I am enjoying being with them far more than young, toned, waxed muscle boys. My friend caught me at Ken's last week with this obese guy. I don't know what is going on but I want to be with old men, I enjoy it now but my mate's don't understand. I suppose I am being wrong discriminating against muscular men but I only want old and overweight men now. Is there something wrong with me that I am not going after what I had no problem getting before? Or am I simple getting over attitude?
Muscular and Confused - Tue Dec 5 14:01:21 2000

yeah ok
Tue Dec 5 15:06:49 2000

Gee thanks for such great advice.
Muscular and Confused - Tue Dec 5 16:26:29 2000

Muscular and Confused: are you worried about what your friend's will think? It's your preference, nothing wrong with that... so go for it.
JGT - Tue Dec 5 16:47:24 2000

Ok Mr J I will. My body is to be worshipped but I am giving it to old and fat men because they treat me like a human being. Thanks.
Muscular but no longer confused - Tue Dec 5 17:35:52 2000

Muscular, is that the only reason?
Also...if it's your body that's "to be worshipped", which is a very physical thing, yet you wish to be treated like a human being, I assume for your mind, then what? Really far-reaching changes in what you consider to be who you really are? Good on you! :-)
Free Spirit - Wed Dec 6 8:15:36 2000

Gee, I hope when I'm saggy and grey, some buff chick wants to do me!!!
nik - Wed Dec 6 8:41:06 2000

Personal abuse deleted.

Sometimes getting off with people that aren't part of a narrow social or aesthetic "ideal", and aren't people you feel obliged to "impress", or be "impressed" by, can be really filthy. Guys of all shapes, sizes and ages can be incredibly hot especially if your previous experience has been rigidly defined by narcissism, and other peoples impression of your partners. Theres also a lot to be said for the erotic charge of the 'forbidden', and within your social set it sounds as though "overweight" or "old" might be completely forbidden. For years as a young surfie/student all my boyfriends and public affairs were with young surfie student types, but the guys I secretly fantasized about & had sex with whenever I could were much older, hairier, Mediterranean, or darker, hopefully married guys with pot bellies. Enjoy it, it's good for you, and Ken dolls can be so dickless after a while....
Wed Dec 6 15:26:01 2000

I've just heard about this new site called "ecrush.com". It's basically a site set up to help you find out if someone you have a crush on has a crush on you too. You sign up an account and give them some details of the person you have a crush on ie. their name and email address. The site then sends them an email telling them that someone has a crush on them (but doesn't tell them who) and then asks them if they have a crush on anyone. If it turns out they have a crush on you then you find out, and you can take it from there. If they don't say they have a crush on you then the rejection is completely anonymous because they never knew it was you who initiated the ecrush. What do you all think of something like this? Would anyone use something like this? Would anyone be able to use this site and let me know how things have panned out????? ;) I'm still too chicken to list the person that I have a crush on despite the anonymity!
Fri Dec 8 11:17:53 2000

Will they accept the contents of half my online address book? Then there's those numbers in my mobile and then there's all those coasters then.................
BND - Fri Dec 8 12:38:06 2000

You mean you'd trust an emailing service to find out the truth about whether someone else has a crush on you?
How about trusting your intuition? Take a few deep breaths, relax, open your mind, ask the question, listen to your heart. You're far more likely to get the correct answer.
Free Spirit - Fri Dec 8 12:39:49 2000

oh 4 sure. how very naive of you FS. "intuition" doesn't exist. it's proper name is a "fluke".
Fri Dec 8 13:03:48 2000

if you all stopped worrying so much and approached someone you like and be straight up front it may suprise you, how many times have we all said i shouldve talked to him/her, or a friend tells you they liked you but are with someone else now, come on people take a chance lifes short rejection wont kill you.
just say hi - Fri Dec 8 21:13:34 2000

yeah, especially if you work with them and it gets out at work that you got the old heave-ho from him/her.
Fri Dec 8 23:55:21 2000

Yesterday was the first day since "it" all happened that I havn't had an attack of depression. Hopefully I'm finally getting on top of it all.
PB Regular - Sat Dec 9 11:47:39 2000

No wonder most of you are having relationship problems or not getting anyone. You all fret and obsess over things like unrequited love, then you go "oh nothing lasts forever" and "oh the universe has others for me". You will be wondering when you are in that hospital at 80 with no one why you stuffed around with love issues whilst Mary in the next bed probably had more sex than all guys who went to sauna baths. If you have this attitude that things don't last and are obsessed with learning painful lessons you will. Sure it may be fantasy land to think of Knights in Shining Armour but perhaps if we did it a bit more they would turn up for a change. Is anyone really worth so much pain and bother? Is being alone a state of mind? Well for the answers to these and other questions get lost I am not answering them. But I am going to say this: as soon as you let go of letting go and non attach yourself to being hung up on attachment then you will be in a better place.
Spirit Who Is Free - Sat Dec 9 22:09:49 2000

hmmmm I think I agree with you but for me and I think a lot of the other people who post here we are in a transition of love, either in or out. When I was in love I rarely passed through this wall less contributed to it but now that I am in a state of flux I kind of like writing how I feel and sending it off into to the "universe", as therapudic as it is writing it sometimes you even get answers back from others who are either in the same situation or have been in the past. For me this board just being here has been of great support and like you I am a spirit trying to be free.
PB Regular - Sun Dec 10 3:34:02 2000

Personally, I think "spirit who is free" is as wrong as any ostrich burying its head in the sand for a better world view. Nothing does last forever. Not relationships or life, and acknowledging that fact has in no way prevented me from enjoying & pursuing its many passing pleasures. Equally, learning from the less pleasurable passages has often prevented me from repeating them unthinkingly. Thinking that a knight in shining armour will show up is actually more likely to prevent you from recognising that a guy with a loving smile will do just fine. Fantasies of romantic love prevent us from even seeing the real love in our midst.
H&C - Sun Dec 10 21:04:19 2000

Wooo hoooo! FreeSpirit promised never to give us any "answers" again.
Wow there really **is** a god! - Mon Dec 11 1:21:02 2000

Mon Dec 11 1:21:02 2000 What's up? I didn't promise either to give answers or not to give answers. Can I suggest that you be constructive, rather than negative and sniping? It's easy. Really. Anyone can do it. Honest! H&C I agree with some of what you say (with Spirit... more so), but don't forget that the guy with the living smile *is* the knight in shining armour! :-)
Also, er, life is eternal. And in successive lifetimes, we get to meet those we've met before, though in other guises. Ever met someone, looked into those eyes, and ***pow!***? Soul recognition. It happens, to many. Love like no other.
Free Spirit - Mon Dec 11 14:33:48 2000

Theres not too many people from this life I'd like to meet again
Mon Dec 11 15:43:13 2000

Mon Dec 11 15:43:13 2000 Perhaps we have never met each other....................................................
BND - Mon Dec 11 21:11:56 2000

Free Spirit - Mon Dec 11 14:33:48 2000 - " Also, er, life is eternal. And in successive lifetimes, we get to meet those we've met before, though in other guises" ....Any evidence to support your claim? (Your deranged mind which is out of touch with reality doesn't count)
Mon Dec 11 22:30:16 2000

Mon Dec 11 22:30:16 2000 - And do you have any evidence to support your counterclaim? You are abusing Free Spirit because of his beliefs. This is as bad as any other form of discrimination.
Panther - Mon Dec 11 22:46:39 2000

Mon Dec 11 22:30:16 2000 You're free to disbelieve what I say to be so, it's up to you. For someone who is going to say, for example, "There's no scientific evidence of this, so it can't be true." - clearly they're not going to go along with it. That's their choice. But imagine that if some people in Sydney had said 200 years ago that in 200 years' time their ancestors would be sitting in rooms kept cool by machines, under light powered by something like a glass tube that is attached to a metal wire, exchanging messages with pictures around the world on something called the internet, and that others had just arrived in Sydney from England in metal ships that fly through the air, having been in London less than two days ago - they might then have been called deranged. Fortunately, we're progressing now at a much faster rate than we were then! I cannot prove that what I've said about soulmates to be true by conventionally-acceptable means, yet I know it to be so, and expect that in not too long a time, it'll be taken as read. There are books relating evidence by way of past life regression.
Meeting a close soulmate and loving and living with him/her is a truly wonderful thing. The initial intensity of feeling is incredible and never to be forgotten, always there to be experienced again. You see, the two souls already know each other and everything else, however major it may appear, is mere detail. It happens, and with far more people than you might imagine.
Free Spirit - Tue Dec 12 12:42:47 2000

Free Spirit re Monday 14:33... I disagree, the "knight in shining armour" is the "other" as rescuer. It's one of the basic ideals in the myth of romantic love, and it encourages people to think of "ideal partners" who will rescue them from their loneliness, and complete their incompleteness. Romantic love, and its illusory ideals teach people to have impossible expectations which they temporarily place on would be partners, only to be disappointed when reality intrudes upon the "illusion". Knights in shining armour are for fairy tales. Real love, as opposed to "romantic love" happens between people who are already complete, and who see eachother not as ideals, but as real, flawed and loving equals. Besides which, idealising an "armoured" man seems like a sure fire way to fall for distant guys with their emotional "guard up"! The guy with a loving smile is his complete opposite!
H&C - Tue Dec 12 15:59:13 2000

H&C With that definition of the Knight - and I hadn't been thinking of such a complete one - yes, I agree with you.
Free Spirit - Wed Dec 13 7:34:50 2000

Much time and energy seems to get spent on this board trying to define love (and ideal love) be it "real", "imagined", "fantasy" or whatever. I don't think it's really possible to do that as many seem to have tried in the past and few come up with anything tangible there. Also, just like it's ok to dream about winning the lottery, getting what we want etc, I don't think it's too warped to dream about a "rescuer", "knight in shining armour", ideal lover etc providing we can separate the fantasy from the reality and accept that dreams may come true sometimes but often we have to work at it to make them happen (and life can be a bitch and things often don't work out, even with the best intentions.....but we must try and accept that and continue on without getting too despondent). Thanks also for your active input on this board Free Spirit. I don't always agree with your philosophy either but I think your input to this board is stimulating and helps to keep it rolling along there the way all good grafitti boards should do. Keep it up!
Dreaming, doing and learning - Wed Dec 13 14:11:49 2000

"Take a few deep breaths, relax, open your mind, ask the question, listen to your heart. You're far more likely to get the correct answer. " This is his claim. He is the one making claims. Can **he** back up the claims he is making??? Do you have any idea how many people get sucked in by bullshit like "karma" and "god" concept. These people geef rubbish to people and it's the most vulnerable and most needy people that get sucked in. Perhaps it's time to be alittle more realistic instead of waiting for karma to do the trick for you.
Wed Dec 13 21:09:18 2000

Wed Dec 13 21:09:18 2000 Why don't you try it? It might be mind-altering (you'd probably gain in self-confidence, for a start), but it doesn't create physical problems and doesn't cost anything! Have fun! :-)
Free Spirit - Thu Dec 14 10:16:46 2000

Your claim was that you would get the right answer. This is like the people who sell phoney potions that cure cancer. The Dept of Fair Trading would like to have a word with you.....
Thu Dec 14 15:13:00 2000

Thu Dec 14 15:13:00 2000 - You seem to be deliberately misconstruing everything Free Spirit is saying. if you would like an argument please take it to one of the other walls and leave this one for people to talk about love.
Panther - Thu Dec 14 20:20:41 2000

I hope Santa brings me some love....
wistful woman - Thu Dec 14 22:22:05 2000

Ok. Love time - here we come!
Thu Dec 14 22:46:42 2000

i want santa to put captain picard in a big red sack so he can play with mine : )
Thu Dec 14 22:47:59 2000

Off topic message deleted.

I think Santa heard me!!! I met the most gorgeous thing that I have seen in years today, we are catching up tomorrow, oh my.....
(maybe not so)wistful woman - Sat Dec 16 22:50:15 2000

Ha. I just heard my ex is marrying her new gf! The bitch didn't know the word 'committment' when she was with me!!
Sun Dec 17 19:19:55 2000

She obviously wasn't or you. Be happy for her. Go my child, and drink to excess.
Sun Dec 17 20:00:44 2000

Doh! wasn't for you...
Sun Dec 17 20:03:17 2000

So I'm starting to get out a bit more & trying to move on from my ex. The trouble is I either always seem to get attention from guys that are old enough to be my father, or meet these great but already taken guys. Such is life.
Getting Over Him - Sun Dec 17 22:18:37 2000

I'm about to jump on a plane to go and say goodbye to my ex boyfriend. I was supposed to be making this trip to meet up with him before moving back to London with him. We came within about a month of making a 2 year LDR work before he went out one night and fell in love with someone else. I think i'm past being bitter but I am still so dissapointed. This is one Christmas I don't think I'm going to enjoy. I'll be back before the new year and I'm going to try and make that a new start.
PB Regular - Mon Dec 18 8:11:52 2000

PB Regular: I had a Christmas like that a few years back. Had moved to Perth with my lover of several years and bought a house, just put in a pool, and were going to spend our first real xmas together.We were both late 20s. He hadn't come out to his family & normally spent xmas with them, but this time had arranged to go back to Sydney early (mid dec) so we could enjoy it together. A few days after he'd left I hadn't heard from him which was really unusual, but I waited for him to call. He didn't. After a few more days his mother called and asked to speak to him. I said he was in Sydney, as far as I knew, pretending to be the off-hand housemate. She said she hadn't heard from him in weeks & was wondering if he was coming over for xmas? I said i wasn't sure...Anyway, 11 days after he left, after daily increasingly worried calls from his family he called me from Noosa. He'd just heard from his family that everyone had been worried and ringing the police, hospitals, morgues etc. and thought he should tell me he was ok and (pregnant pause) with his lover a Qantas steward he'd met 6 weeks before and decided,just now in fact, that he wanted to be with forever and hoped I'd understand. I lied convincingly & said of course I did, and I was just glad to know he was alright, and that I'd look forward to seeing him when he got back. That really f*cking threw him. I went out that night and picked up the cutest boy in Perth. He was still with me 3 days later when my lover came home. We were enjoying the pool a lot. I booked a spectacularly expensive double fare to Sydney for the new boy and I over Christmas NY and left my lover alone, for xmas (sadly his qantas boyfriend was working...)and understood that 5 star revenge, if well timed, can do wonders for a broken heart. A 19yr old in puppy-love also does a lot for a wounded ego. We sold the house, I moved back to Sydney with my new 19 yr old boyfriend, and we all eventually became great friends. It was the worst, and best, and certainly most expensive Christmas I ever spent. After you get to London,I reccomend you immediately fly to Paris and throw yourself into French sleazy nightlife(Le Trap, Studio de Nuit etc. stay in saunas...). You'll love it, they'll love you and he can have a fleeting glimpse of the exciting man he lost. It wont cure the disappointment, but, in the xmas spirit, it'll certainly share it!
Brother Xmas - Tue Dec 19 3:55:34 2000

Sun Dec 17 19:19:55 2000 P*ssed off you didn't get an invite?
Tue Dec 19 7:46:05 2000

Love your work Brother Xmas!!!!
whoah - Tue Dec 19 11:57:01 2000

Tue Dec 19 7:46:05BR> Tue Dec 19 15:11:01 2000

Tue Dec 19 7:46:05. Why? Did you get an invite? Give it here...its mine you b@stard
Tue Dec 19 15:17:46 2000

It's my wedding!
Wed Dec 20 6:35:41 2000

such a nice day for a white wedding. i'll run the bath you organise the razors, K .
idol willy - Wed Dec 20 12:29:40 2000

I'll get the razors if you chew 'em
idle threat - Wed Dec 20 12:44:42 2000

Thanks Brother Xmas - Tue Dec 19 3:55:34 2000 for some stupid reason I keep thinking I'm the only person who has ever loved and lost and it's stories like yours that make me realise that things arn't as bad as they seem and it will get better. About the time you posted that I was at the place he is staying and saying the things we needed to say and trying to move on. I was very scared of him at first and worried that I was going to get hurt again but after a few beers we relaxed and realised that he never meant to hurt me and over the course of the next couple of hours we laughed and cried and talked and cried some more. I was quite prepared to see him yesterday and walk out of his life forever but I realise that that isn't necissary. We are going out for dinner tonight and hopefully we can build on the past 4 years and become really good friends and not let those 4 years go to waste. I still think we have unfinnished bussiness together but only time will ever reveal that. I know it might seem stupid but I always saw us in a similar light to the couple in "Holding the Man" that were always meant to be together for better or worse. Maybe its just that the time is not right maybe it never will be again. Anyway I've still got another 10 days and Christmas with his family and I don't think it's going to be as bad or as hard as I thought.
PB Regular - Wed Dec 20 16:06:40 2000

PB Regular, Be careful mate. You've wisely chosen friendship as the longer term prospect for what you 2 can share, but considering the "meant to be together" feelings you've had for him for years, you may be rushing yourself on the buddy bit a little. I'm not saying you should give him a hard time. You shouldn't. It's over. But you probably shouldn't be pouring your heart out to him at this stage either. It's not a good dialogue for you to be having with him yet (if ever), and his potential to re-wound you, unintentionally, is enormous. Your willingness to forgive him and to understand his position is really admirable and speaks volumes about your maturity, and generousity. But you are naturally going to go through several more emotions in quick succession, and with alcohol, and recent ex lovers, what has been going swimmingly can suddenly become quite, unintentionally, ugly, humiliating and painful. Don't push yourself too hard to be "the ideal ex" just yet, and leave yourself some options for a hasty exit. Hopefully I'm being pessimistic and you'll have a great xmas with his family, but keep a few tricks up your sleeve, and avoid the boozy "deep and meaningful" post-mortems for another time. Have a great holiday. Best wishes.
Brother Xmas - Wed Dec 20 20:22:31 2000

PB regular: Brother Xmas gives some good advice there. Be careful and don't put yourself too much in the "victim slot". You may well turn out to be great friends with your ex and I wish you all the best if that happens but your ex has a new partner and how will your friendship impact there with the new partner? The physical separation has happened but you may also need an "emotional separation" as well to be able to let go and both get on with new lives with new lovers for a time. I think it's lovely that you can both talk to each other but yes, be careful with your own emotions and don't let yourself get hurt in that way and do keep your options handy. Have a fab Chrissie everyone!
Roll on 2001! - Thu Dec 21 9:55:46 2000

We went out clubbing last night and visited a few old haunts. We had a great time but the rules are different now, we both know that, but we don't know what the new rules are. I know I have to be very careful and I know what some of the pitfalls are but when I was sitting on the back step this morning watching the sunrise I realised i'm in the middle of a minefield that is covered in flowers.
PB Regular - Thu Dec 21 14:47:40 2000

Can you love someone new before you have left a previous love behind. I always seem to fall for the impossible guys - already involved or living overseas or as at present, both!! I know I should move on but I find it difficult when he is still entrenched in my heart. How do I get over him so I can allow someone new in??
Waiting in the Arrivals Hall - Sun Dec 24 21:06:33 2000

have a wank
Sun Dec 24 21:53:36 2000

thanks...that's much better
Over waiting - Tue Dec 26 16:10:13 2000

glad to have helped
Tue Dec 26 21:35:44 2000

Waiting in the Arrivals Hall - There are no rules in love. "Should you" may attract lots of different opinions, but anything "can" happen. Read this and previous walls for some suggestions on how to get over someone.
Panther - Wed Dec 27 19:26:38 2000

I'm very sad today. there's a boy a work that really likes me, but he wont admit to it. he always flirts and does cheeky stuff to me, but is too scared to confront his own feelings. can someone please give me some advice ?
Pukoo - Fri Dec 29 12:17:25 2000

Pukoo - Work relationships can be very difficult. Be very careful before you get involved in one.
Fri Dec 29 17:12:06 2000

How do you even know he likes you? If he hasn't told you then you don't know for sure. You may just be misreading his signs. I was once infactuated with a boy (work one too) and I thought he felt the same way because he was constantly smiling at me and asking how I was and following me out the door when I was leaving blah blah blah. But he never actually said anything to me so I didn't know what was going on. Then I watched him interact with others and he was exactly the same way with them too. He was just a very friendly person who didn't realise that his constant smiling was leading everyone to the wrong impression. (much like good christian boys seem to do alot) He was such a tease!
Fri Dec 29 22:45:05 2000

Waiting in the Arrivals Hall , The guys you are fixating on are soooooo compelling precisely because of their unavailability. Falling for guys you know you have no chance with is a safe excuse for having a non-emotional life, with lots of yearning, but no really heartbraking disappointments & none of the very real risk that putting yourself on the line for someone you can actually BE with, entails. Mooning over impossibilities is a great strategy for postponing life. Make mine a double-skim latte on hold.
dystopian - Sat Dec 30 2:14:14 2000

Well I'm back from the "fated" trip to Perth and things went as best as could be expected perhaps even better. We parted as friends and in the 7 days we were there we went through all the steps that lots of people told me would happen. We sat and told each other how we felt and tried to understand what was happening and what was going to happen. We fought and bated each other, we tried to be just casual friends, we laughed, we cried we even had a bit of a cuddle and then I had to put him on the plane back to his new boyfriend. Tonight I have read back over what you have all said and I am overwhelmed by the support and wisdom of people I don't and probably never will know. With hindsight I think perhaps I am developing a victim mentality and I know thats not healthy but it still kills me thinking of him looking into someone elses eyes this New Years Eve and kissing them not me. I have waited 2 years to be with him and to revive that passion he now shares with someone else, but theres nothing I can do about that. I feel as though I have jumped through all the hoops, I've tried as hard as I can to understand I've tried to be mature about it all and I suppose I expected that as soon as I had done all that the pain would magically stop. It hasn't. Everyone says it will take time but I've been waiting 2 years I can't wait much longer. As much as I love you David you had no right to make me feel this bad about myself. Thanks to Panther, Xmas Brother, Roll on 2001! and all the other people who have posted, I don't think I should post here anymore, my posts are always full of angst its time to go out there and do something about it. Peace to you all and I hope you all have a great new year.
PB Regular - Sun Dec 31 1:12:23 2000

dystopian - Oh, so I could should take a reality check, get in touch with the real me, show some vulnerability, become willing to commit, take some risks. And I thought it was because there are too many losers and no interesting guys in our fair city!!
Waiting ITAH - Sun Dec 31 21:51:09 2000

Happy New Millennium everyone. May we all find the love and happiness we desire in the coming year and for those of us in love or with happiness, may we get the passion and the fires of the heart raging with those we choose to be with. Take care and have great fun and adventures. Let love, understanding and compassion be the catchcry of the new age.
21st Century lover!!!! - Mon Jan 1 1:06:17 2001

here here!!
love bunny - Mon Jan 1 13:40:05 2001

Personal abuse deleted.

so I go up the coast for a few days with a friend for NYE, we get along really well, end up in bed a couple of times, then last night after 8 hours in the car, exhausted and drained, she puts a big trip on me - I inadvertedly said something in the car that she misinterpreted - she feels used, 'sexually marginalised', 'the bit on the side', the 'handbag' - I'm devastated that I've hurt her feelings and sincerely apologise, because I care about her as a friend and a lover, but she's still really upset, feels vulnerable and distrustful. The long drive takes its toll on me and I sob out of frustration and exhaustion. I want time out. I take her home. she holds me at the door and doesn't want me to leave. I have to work the next day. she says she doesn't mind if I go, but she'll feel hurt - she needs at least an hour of cuddles for reassurance. I'm dirty, hungry and dog tired, and want my own bed. guilt vs resentment??? I put my own needs aside. I lock the car and stay the night. I still feel like sh*t for hurting her, even unintentionally. she's had a f*cked childhood, lots of nasty things happened to her. should I have gotten involved in the first place? I thought she was pretty together... am I such a horrible person???
over it - Wed Jan 3 7:27:30 2001

over it - It is too late for what ifs. What you need to do now is try and make the best out of the situation. I suggest you start with a talk about both of your feelings. Make sure you are both rested and sober and somewhere comfortable for you to have a long talk.
Panther - Wed Jan 3 8:16:07 2001

Help! I am inlove with a shop boy. I have been going to this shop far too often, and am scared to tell this boy that I like him. I don't even know if he is gay. I am sure every gay man has been in this situation but everytime I see this boy, my heart races and I blush and then I get the shakes and then.......... I chicken out and walk away. What do I do?
Brisbaneboyinlove - Wed Jan 3 23:10:14 2001

PB regular, sorry mate, I misinterpreted your initial posting & thought you were going to London, not Perth, to say your final goodbyes, hence the suggestions about Parisian nightlife. Perth nightlife isn't nearly as sophisticated, although i certainly had fun there...Hope you got a chance to visit Swanbourne by yourself. Day or night, it pumps. As far as your current state of emotional flux goes, unbelievable as it may seem , it passes. He's with someone else, & you can't help but imagine & be hurt by that, for now. Eventually that & your situation will change but in the meantime try to avoid those torturing mental pictures, and when you find yourself going there formulate an antidote mental picture that has you looking into the eyes of a laughing man who is thrilled to be sharing your company. Do it consciously. Every time you have a jealous or sad moment have that "other" image as your conscious antidote. It works. Mine always involved a very average looking guy who was hugging & helplessly laughing with me.(Big space between his front teeth, dumb hair, laugh lines...) I've never met him but he's helped me more than I can say. Negative imaginings are no more powerful than positive and if you use the latter constructively and consciously they can circumvent the "victim mentality" you naturally find yourself tending towards. Dare to imagine joy vividly, down to the smell of sweat & the sound of laughter. It works. Honest. Have a great year.
Brother Xmas - Wed Jan 3 23:44:39 2001

I could do with some help here. For several years I've been dealing with emotional disorders (depression, anxiety etc) and am going through a bad patch at the moment. I live with my boyfriend and his best friend, and I feel like I'm on my own. They're always together and having a laugh, sometimes at my expense. I explained to my partner when I first met him about my situation and he said he understood, but now the best friend is with us and behaviour has changed. He doesn't seem to have time for me anymore, and isn't as understanding as he used to be. I'm thinking maybe he's realising what a burden it is to be with a depressive-prone person, and that any other company is preferable. Perhaps I'm rambling, but I really don't know how to put all my feelings into words. I'm at a loss. Can anyone help?
paradox - Thu Jan 4 13:00:39 2001

maybe you should get professional help before trying a relationship as we all know how draining emotionally etc they can be, your partner obviously doesnt respect how serious you feel about this maybe its time you thought of him as a burden and did something for yourself
rick - Thu Jan 4 21:14:49 2001

paradox - I hope you are treating your illnesses properly. Emotional disorders are often medical conditions, like diabetes, and need constant attention. Your illness may be putting a strain on your relationship. It also may be making it seem as if they are laughing at you, etc. I suggest a serious talk with your boyfriend, and if that doesn't seem to be getting you anywhere then seek professional counselling.
Panther - Fri Jan 5 8:11:41 2001

paradox, are you doing anything at all to help yourself?. You seem to be giving the impression that it's all your bf's responsibility to keep things nice and cosy for you, just because he was aware of your emotional problems in the beginning. He can't cure you. A relationship is not something in which to hide yourself from the world. Take responsibility for yourself and get the help you need. This is about you - not your bf or his best friend. Sorry if that sounds a little terse - it wasn't meant to be :).
Sat Jan 6 10:18:33 2001

PB Regular It's only natural for you to feel the way you do. Frankly, I think that for you to be so matter of fact about it all is fantastic. I had this huge emotional outpouring and angst, spread over a long period - not being able to let go and all that. But in the end, I realised that what might have happened wouldn't have been right for me anyway. I had to learn that to love someone and then to lose that love, however traumatic it might have been, was allright. In the end, I just put my trust in the powers that be, that what was happening was for the best. And it was. What happened happened for a purpose (too complex to explain here) - something like it had to. But I learned oodles from the situation, and grew with it.

Paradox It's an unusual situation for you to be in a relationship where the other person has his best friend there at home as well. One that would be difficult for anyone, let alone one who feels that he has other problems.
If you've had those problems for several years, I'm guessing that you are already seeing someone about it all. But, you've had those problems for several years. Can I suggest that you seek help from someone new, someone with perhaps a different slant? Please try someone with holistic experience. Things *will* work out, and well. Believe it, honey.
Free Spirit - Sun Jan 7 12:23:34 2001

paradox, there is a good chat room at www.depressionet.com.au if you would like to chat with others who understand what you are going through.
Mon Jan 8 12:09:12 2001

Free Spirit is so wrong with a lot of the advice. And too gutless for debates with those that don't agree. Scared of alternative viewpoints. How about living in reality FS?
No Karma - Mon Jan 8 16:47:25 2001

On 4BC (2UE Sydney) is that foolish Cosmic Stars or whatever with Sharina on Sunday night. Whilst I think it is rubbish I was amazed to hear one comment she made to this woman who liked this guy but he said I don't love you. Sarina said he should of been glad to of gone out with you. This wall gives so much power to the person who does not love us. They are always right and then we read drivwel such as we had to go through an experience. Such rot. I did not have to go through anything. Put your money where your mouth is people and stop talking in abstrations and being simplistic. What did being hurt teach you? Did you really really really need such a lesson? Most on here seem to of ended up emotional cripples. So stop saying crap like oh you needed to be hurt and get on with the business of helping others deal with things that are not their fault. To Hard & Chillin:you stated last year relationships end. Cannot wait to see your postings on here if yours ended. You would have to eat your words.
Resin - Mon Jan 8 17:03:55 2001

Ok so I said I wouldnt post here any more but I had a really bad day this is what I wrote to a friend today: "I was at work today and don't know why or where but the phrase "Edgewere (?) Road came into my brain, I don't know where from but that made me think of the underground and that made me think of him, which made me think of us, which made me think of them, which made me think of that, which made me have to take a drug (perscribed Xanax) to make me forget which pissed me off because I am supposed to know better and be strong enough not to let it get to that. I have been living a very self distructive lifestyle of late, its been lots of fun but I know I can't keep (or get) it up, on the other hand reality really does suck though." When, is this going to get easier, Grrrrrrrrrrrr
PB Regular - Mon Jan 8 23:22:11 2001

Resin I'm not going to enter into a long debate with you, because:
(a) it's likely that it would veer way off topic, particularly in view of (b)
(b) you are abusive. I would be astonished if you aren't the source of the post made 16 minutes before the one that you put your name to, which I guess took about 16 minutes to compose. This suggests that you are the author of a lot of other abusive contributions, some of which Panther has deleted,
(c) this is the Love Graffiti Wall, which means what it says.
I've written words to this effect before, but here goes again. You are entitled to your views. I am entitled to mine. I respect your right to hold yours and am not ridiculing them. I expect the same in return.
Free Spirit - Tue Jan 9 10:31:03 2001

PB Regular Do you have a close friend who you can talk to - a lot? What you're describing (the memory triggers) happened many many times to me, and it wasn't any fun, so I can understand how you feel. No matter how many times people said "you have to let go...". Or knowing that if you love someone, then you have to set them free, and if they come back, then they're yours. I knew all that, but. One thing that *really* helped was having someone next door who I could speak to almost whenever I wanted to, either on the phone or in person.
Free Spirit - Tue Jan 9 10:39:35 2001

I broke up with my gf of 1 year about 3 months ago.We decided to remain close friends and i am beginning to think this wasn't such a good idea. We get on fabulously,don't get me wrong,I even stay over at hers at times & we would see eachother probably everyday. Anyway,to cut a long & I guess for some predictable story short it has all turned a bit pear-shaped. I am not attracted to her sexually anymore but love her in every other way possible,she is prob one of the best friends I have ever had,she feels differently and still sees me as gf material,anyway last night I approached the topic & said that we need to set some boundaries within the friendship so that we can remain good friends without hurting one another,I told her honestly how I felt,it didn't go down well. She said that shes a little confused & can't decide if not seeing me at all is the best option right now as it is too hard for her to spend time with me but not be with me...with me if that makes sense. I don't want to loose her as a friend,I truely love her & would miss our great times together if she decided to do this but at the same time I don't want to continue to hurt her by reminding her of what she can't have.What can I do?? Pls don't reply with smart remarks as I am quite serious & would appreciate some honest advice.
Lost.....big time! - Tue Jan 9 12:18:47 2001

you probably already know what to do , let the poor girl get on with her life you are comfortable hanging on her "just as friends" because it gives you a claytons relationship but your poor friend is pulling her hair out wanting you is that fair you already know what to do.
y - Tue Jan 9 12:39:59 2001

Lost...big time! You said you love her in every way except sexually. What's wrong with being in a non sexual (or sexually minimalist)relationship with her (sounds like you already have been)? Many loving relationships that work well don't involve sex and perhaps you should talk to her some more about your feelings for her. Maybe she could consider a relationship with you that is sexually open which allows you both a sexual outlet (love doesn't equal just sex) and you can both share every other aspect of yourselves with each other?
y not - Tue Jan 9 13:57:28 2001

Lost...big time...I was in your ex-gf's position a while ago. I know my ex had all the right intentions, she showered me with love and was always there but for me it was not in the way I wanted her to be. It's such a hard position you are both in at the moment. Don't listen to any negetive comments from others. I am not going to tell you what to do but I'll tell you what I did. We both had to cut all ties. It was one of the most painful things I have ever had to go through but that was 3 years ago. For me it was the only way I could do it. If I didn't choose this way we would have ended up as enemies. I now consider my ex as a very good friend because she gave me the time and space I needed to get over her (although she was as upset as I was). I no longer look at her in the mentality of a relationship but I look at her as a very good close friend. There is one thing you do have to recognise and that is things will change between you both. Don't let it upset you just let it happen. Anyway I wish you well and try to stay strong.
jlm - Tue Jan 9 16:20:15 2001

Lost.....big time! - You have a difficult decision to make either way. Seeing each other daily probably isn't going to make it easier. I suggest that you have a break from each other for a week or even a month and then see how you both feel.
Panther - Tue Jan 9 19:58:52 2001

My boyfriend has been spending a lot of time lately with his ex. I know the ex still has feelings for him but my boyfriend says he only loves me. I have told him that I don't like him hanging out with his ex but he gets angry and says I am trying to run his life. I love him and think he is Mr right but I can't handle the situation of him and his ex. I understand that I can't make him stop seeing him, but I also think that if he knows how much it upsets me, and loves me as much as he says he does, then he would respect my wishes. I also am thinking that maybe I should get out of the relationship rather than stay an be unhappy, even if he is mr. right.
rex - Fri Jan 12 13:03:58 2001

rex - Sit down and have a good talk with your boyfriend about your situation. Tell him how you feel and let him tell you how he feels. Don't let the discussion get heated or recriminating. Hopefully you can come to an agreement, or even an understanding.
Panther - Fri Jan 12 19:35:19 2001

rex, I'd say your bf also knows that his ex still has feelings for him - he's obviously getting-off on it. This same thing happend to me once, and my bf at the time gradually started hanging out more and more with his ex, who I knew was still in love with him. I could see that my bf was thoroughly enjoying this new power he felt he had over both of us. In the end, when I got my self-respect back, (after I found out they were having sex behind my back) I left, and heard that they tried to make a go of it (can you believe it!) but it didn't last (yay). Anyway, you probably know deep down what to do. Good luck :)
jay - Fri Jan 12 22:15:38 2001

Rex, attempting to limit your boyfriends friendship with his ex is understandable but ultimately counterproductive. By trying to control something you have no control over you end up sounding like a neurotic, jealous insecure nag. Thats not particularly conducive to passion, affection or friendship. He's with you. He split up with the ex. Accept that he's with you because he wants to be and stop driving him away by obsessing over things you have no say in & less chance of changing. If you are so fixated on his friendship with the ex you are probably ruining time you could be enjoying with him having arguments you can never win. Thats wasteful, illogical and it wont work. You just end up becoming a person you don't want to be, to get something you cant have, at the expense of something you've actually already got. If you're worried about losing him, you're doing everything you can to make that happen. If you want to be with him accept his right to have this friendship graciously. (He's going to anyway whether you like it or not, so you might as well go back to being the fun guy he wanted to be with when you first got together!) Enjoy the relationship you actually have, drop the ultimatums and concentrate on being the person you and he both want you to be. You don't want to be a neurotic bore & I can guarantee he doesn't want you to either. If you can't enjoy what you've already got because you're so afraid of losing it, you should leave him now and spare yourselves the inevitability of its destruction by fearful,'loving', suffocation. Smell the coffee mate. The ex already lost him, you're heading the same way, and the next guy is neither of you unless you become again who you are, who you were in the first place. Good luck.
Big Brother - Sat Jan 13 5:43:07 2001

"Free Spirit" Rocks!!! I love reading his/her postings. I think it is a fantastic way of looking at life. I, not so long ago had a very emotional break up with an ex. It took me a long time to get over it. During this process I did alot of soul Searching and became alot more Spiritual in my way of thinking. Everything does happen for a reason and I would not be the person I am today had I not experienced and learned what I have.
Marcus - Mon Jan 15 13:03:03 2001

Free Spirit I am not interested in debates with you. Where is your unconditional love anyway I have not been typing abuse under another name. Someone said to me about his topic: yes you have the right to believe in karma and law of attraction but your lack of debate means I have put into your mind the possiblity that the spirit does get past karma. You seem to have a hard time entertaining such a possibility. I just think that some of your postings seem fatalistic; as if suffering is some sort of virture. Bollocks to that. You have a good right to your views but your silence towards me means I hit a button. That is good. So finally; Free Spirit karma is real but it is possible that it is good and can gotten past. Now stop writing rubbish like I am abusing you on this wall as I have only posed alternative points of view you don't want to know. Good luck to you Free because I am going off the karma merry go round. In the words of John Lennon; maybe someday you will join us and the world will be as one. Idealistic you all say; too bad because its as real for me as karma is for Mr Spirit.
Resin - Mon Jan 15 19:10:08 2001

Im wondering if anyone has any advice for me.... My ex who I have recently been seeing again has just hooked up with someone who mixes in the same circle of friends as me. Although I am pleased he has met someone as it give me closure on our relationship, it puts me in a very uncomfortable situation. I feel as if I don't want to go out anymore or see any of those Friends in case I run into him.
Paul - Tue Jan 16 9:12:42 2001

Paul I don't think that being happy for your ex means that you should be unhappy for yourself. Your friends are still your friends, just as they are your ex's new bf's friends, and the new relationship shouldn't change the way they feel about you in any way, awkward though it might seem at first.

Gee, thanks Marcus! :-) And peace to you, too, Resin.
Free Spirit - Tue Jan 16 15:50:18 2001

Paul - I suggest you need to decide what is more important to you at the moment, to go out with your friends or to avoid your ex. Or maybe you can work out a way to do both. Some possibilities: take some friends to a new place; hang around with your friends until he shows up then quietly exit; make new friends in a new place.
Panther - Tue Jan 16 19:12:53 2001

I am so sick and tired of all the brutality of the gay scene. When am I going to meet someone decent, genuine and honest? Someone whose main concern isn't my dick size? Someone who isn't just looking for a "bit on the side"? Someone who knows how to tell the truth? Why goes being gay seem to mean being superficial? artificial? I'm so desperately lonely, but I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather be like this than in a relationship with a lying, cheating, fickle bastard. No wonder gays have are looked upon suspiciously by others!
joshua - Wed Jan 17 0:24:32 2001

joshua - Try meeting people somewhere else than bars where people go to "have fun". Try a quieter bar where you can talk. Try a social or sporting group. Try volunteering with someone like BGF. Try Pinkboard Personals. Try making friends rather than just looking for Mr Right.
Panther - Wed Jan 17 7:58:33 2001

And Peace to you Free Spirit.
Resin - Thu Jan 18 10:16:58 2001

joshua I hope we can all meet the opposite to your description. lookout 4 the good guys; we must be around.
ready 4 real love - Sun Jan 21 13:19:07 2001

Can anyone give me some advice on relationship? I have a bf for 4 years now, and I'm beginning to get bored with the relationship. He's completely in love with me, but I don't think I love him anymore, though I care deeply for him. Should I tell him the truth and break-up with him or just continue the relationship? I can't stand breaking his heart!
Confused - Sun Jan 21 15:36:03 2001

Hey Confused, not knowing all the specifics of your relationship, all I can say is that being bored with someone that loves you sure as hell beats being bored alone!
T - Sun Jan 21 22:48:45 2001

Confused - Are you getting bored with sex, or is it him? Or maybe it is life in general. Maybe its time to try something new in the relationship. Have a talk with him and see if you can come up with something which will cure your boredom.
Panther - Mon Jan 22 7:59:18 2001

Thanks Panther & T for your sound advice. I've tried talking my bf into having 3some or 4some, or even an open relationship, but he's not up to it. Maybe, I'm bored with my bf, maybe I'm bored with sex or maybe with life, or all. All I know is I need to do something different; I'm tired of the same old routine ( and probably having sex with the same person for 4 years). I'm also afraid that I might start cheating on him if i don't end our relationship.
Confused - Tue Jan 23 3:18:10 2001

confused, i know the feeling. i am in a relationship and i often see guys that i really want to have sex with who try taking me home, often right in front of my boyfriend. it is very hard when you are in this situation. i care for my boyfriend so much, but it is often very difficult to have self control, especially when your sex life with him may be becoming mundane. i have dropped comments about threesomes to my boyfriend a couple of times and although hesitant i think that i could get him to go for the idea if it were someone who we were both attracted to. if you have tried suggesting this and he is not showing any interest then you obviously need to speak to him about the issue and why you are bored. it is always very easy to let yourself slip into a lifestyle pattern that has no dynamic at all. perhaps the two of you should start partaking in new activities, either together or appart, whichever suits you. this may solve the problem of you being bored with your life in general. jstdo something new and different. unless he is physically strapping you down, it is not really fair to blame him for being bored with your life. i don't think that you are bored with him. if you were, you would not be showing this much concern with his feelings, you would simply discard him. you also need to address what it is that you expect from a relationship. he is not there to be a constant source of entertainment for you. if you are this bored with your life and your relationship, how fun do you imagine you are for him to be around. i don't mean that in an insulting way at all, don't get me wrong. i think that deep down you still love him. you have said that he still loves you. just think... in ten years time are you going to look back after breaking up with him and think, "i'm really glad that i have done this, because now i have been able to have lots of casual sex" or are you going to realise that you have lost your life partner and you will not be able to reclaim him. i am a firm beleiver in soul mates. you can find this one other special person at any age. you just need to be mature enough to trade in a bit of spontaneous fun for a serious committment. if you throw it away, just think what you will be missing. basically, just be totally honest with him. if you are unsure of what you are bored with say so to him. tell him that something needs to be done. just don't make any rash decisions without giving him an opertunity to do something about the situation. i hope that some of this has helped. i think that i should actually take some of my own advise.
19 and content with life so far - Tue Jan 23 13:34:33 2001

maybe you all should stop thinking with your small heads, i understand frustration i understand being attracted to other people but i dont understand the term being bored with your partner, they are not a xmas present you no longer want to play with they are people with real feelings and obviously and unfortuatly in love with people who dont deserve them. rather than worrying about spicing up your sex lives which no matter how active they are now will slow down eventually, try finding a common interest outside the bedroom, maybe you should do your partners a favour and leave them so they can get on with what they want and you can go uck your brains out then one day you might be able to have longterm relationships without getting bored.
Tue Jan 23 14:24:03 2001

i agree with that last comment, except for the last point. i don't beleive that having more sex will make you get over it. i have slept with hundreds of people over the last few years; not a fact that i am proud of, but i had fun whilst ddoing it and i was always safe. i am still not over it though. you always see someone that you just really want. people always want what they cannot have and once in a relationship, promiscuous sex just becomes that little bit more desirable because it is forbidden. by the same token, i don't think that it should be done if you have a partner. all i was saying before was make an effort to see if the relationship is able to be saved before giving up on it altogether. what do you have to lose?
19 and content with life so far. - Tue Jan 23 15:02:54 2001

Confused - It sounds as if you have a difficult decision to make. Don't forget that the other man's grass always seems greener. It might be worth talking to someone in detail about it. Try your local Gay & Lesbian Counselling Service.
Panther - Tue Jan 23 20:32:31 2001

Or, do what I've always done and cheat discreetly and don't get caught. It's not that hard. Don't sleep with people your bf knows, don't give your number out, don't have sex when you're out of it, and don't bring home germs. It isn't rocket science and it means you can have the long term relationship you need with the short term thrills you know you want. Simple. You can have your cake (and someone elses) and eat it too. Just have the manners and good sense to not get caught. I've done it successfully for years, maintaining great relationships of 5+ years at a time and had all the sex i wanted.
Wed Jan 24 2:34:13 2001

In my relationship, I always ask myself the question "would I do something behind my partners back that I would feel comfortable or easy going about if he was doing the same"? It makes me think twice about being impulsive at times and possibly sabotaging a lovely relationship with someone I love. Most men are essentially polygamous (through evolution for many reasons I believe) and monogamy is a difficult committment to make, even to someone you love. I think that communicating your needs and desires with your partner and discussing such issues is a much more mature and caring approach than playing emotional time bomb games with them and the relationship. I hope for Weds Jan 24th's partners sake that the germs do stay away.
Wed Jan 24 9:00:23 2001

re: Wed Jan 24 2:34:13 2001 That's asking for trouble, isn't it? I'd always thought that a relationship was built on trust and - shock, horror - honesty. From your posting it seems that your partner thinks he's in a monogamous relationship. On a practical level you're setting yourself up for a fall. You've been careful - and lucky - so far, but the law of averages will catch up with you sooner or later and you'll get caught out. Is it worth the risk? Also, if you're able to look him in the eye every day and keep up this deception, then how much do you really love him?
Perthboi? - Wed Jan 24 9:07:11 2001

Wed Jan 24 2:34:13 2001 Wow, how sincere you must be! Not that long ago, Joshua was writing about "a relationship with a lying, cheating, fickle bastard" and now we've all been given a hint as to what one of those is! :-) Thanks!
19 and content... I don't agree with you saying that "once in a relationship, promiscuous sex just becomes that little bit more desirable because it is forbidden". In the relationship that I'm in, the idea just doesn't come into it. We love each other too much to even consider doing anything outside of it, anything that might hurt the other. Yes, we both look at others and say, "they're hunky" or whatever. But as for screwing them, it'd never happen. There'd be no point, either: the sex we have is sensational. And no, we don't get bored, either! :-)
Free Spirit - Thu Jan 25 23:27:14 2001

Aw that's so sweet.
Fri Jan 26 12:05:52 2001

FS - what happens when you do get bored? You can't expect to be completely fulfilled all the time even after decades of having sex with the same person
Fri Jan 26 20:38:57 2001

Panther could you please when you delete the Christain postings not take the non Christian postings with you as a friend got his taken off and it had nothing to do with that guy. I met up with a guy I was in love with 5 years ago and it felt pretty good. I think that people can throw the reality at me that we are not together but I just feel we are, but not in that way at the moment. The bottom line is this: people talk about healing especially New Age wankers, but you know if this is healing ie I feel very good about seeing him and I don't feel sad or lonely, then it is a wonderful "wank" to have.
Resin - Fri Jan 26 21:21:23 2001

free spirit: i didn't say that because i am in a relationship i find it hard not to go off with other people, but people (in general) do seem to like what they cannot have. this is where self control comes into practice. i would never cheat on my boyfriend but i do still like to look at other guys, i often do it without even realising it just from habit. i think that the best advise to anybody in a relation ship would be to ask yourself this: would i feel comfortable doing this in front of my partner and know that they would have no problem with it at all? honestly, cheating can be different for different people. some people don't like you looking at another person, others would let you look but wouldn't like you to flirt (which in itself can be harmless). you get the general idea though. you should be following the guide lines of **your** relationship, not anyone else's. this is something that you should always discuss with your partner early on in the realionship. then there will be no confusion. i know some people will probably disagree with me and say that you should never even look at someone else, but it really depends on your relationship. i know in mine it is definately a look, but don't touch arrangement. oh, and no flirting either - nobody likes a prick tease - but that is just us. i have two friends that have been together for about 3 years who always take boys home with them for 3somes. they also sleep with other people separately. i personally would not like that, but it works with them and they are very happy together. you just need to be with someone who is on your level with similar morals. well, that is what i think anyway, but others are entitled to their opinions.
19 and content. - Fri Jan 26 23:37:30 2001

Free Spirit, and Perthboi - Your assumptions about my character, my lovers ignorance, and the imminent demise of my relationship, based on my honest acknowledgement of discreet sexual polygamy, are not unexpected. I've heard the same attitudes expressed again and again by gaymen who've made sexual fidelity the centerpiece of their commitment to eachother. Its standard stuff that we inherited from our parents who frequently divorced because of its breach. So too with gaymen. We make the extreme unlikelihood of complete sexual fidelity the criteria for staying in, or leaving a loving partnership. I've chosen to de-emphasize monogamy from my expectations of my lovers, and their expectations about me. I respect my lovers right to privacy about time he spends without me and expect the same. I trust in his kindness and love and humour and I cherish absoloutely the time we spend together. I believe he values the same in me, and neither of us choose to make fidelity the defining factor of our committment. I'm not at all interested in hearing about sex he's had with others (past and present) and out of respect for his feelings I ensure my sex with others doesn't intrude, ever, in our lives. I know this may seem odd, but I've found that it works really well for me and I'm now in my 3rd relationship thats lasted over 5 yrs, and i regard them as successes that ended as friends when they should have & not because a guy did what comes naturally. Manners, and discretion don't come so naturally, so a lot of people cling to promises they don't keep (hoping they might) getting clumsily "caught" and hurting people they love. It makes everything so much harder than it needs to be. By de-emphasizing the cheating, but stressing the discretion, I've found a practical solution that works for me and the people I love.(& the French have done it for centuries!)If it isn't appropriate for you, fair enough and good luck!
"lying, cheating, fickle bastard" - Sat Jan 27 2:46:45 2001

"lying, cheating, fickle bastard" You've made it different this time - afte all you did say that you were cheating before. But if it's part of the relationship, then that's not cheating. It's each to their own!

Fri Jan 26 20:38:57 2001 The reason I know that we won't get bored is that what is most important in our relationship isn't the sex we have, it's the love that we share. Believe me, when the love is great, the sex is so much better just as a result of having that love. As far as I'm concerned, as any sex outside of our relationship wouldn't be accompanied by that love, there'd be no point in it, as it simply wouldn't be as good. It couldn't be. And anyway, the sex aint bad, either! :-)
Free Spirit - Sat Jan 27 9:55:18 2001

Umm..FS, how long exactly have you two been together?
Sat Jan 27 11:02:11 2001

"sex aint bad"?... but wasn't it "sensational" a while back?
Sat Jan 27 11:05:11 2001

Confused too - I have friends who enjoy a non-physical relationship. They're happy with each other in every other respect and plan to keep it that way. But each has sex with others, though not to the point of emotional attachment. It wouldn't work for me - but it does for them. You are entitled to sexual fulfillment surely.
PaulDiamondo - Sat Jan 27 14:44:40 2001

my partner and i dont have sex and havent had for about 3 yrs, due to medical problems on his behalf i also suspect age and loss of desire a factor too anyway he and i discussed other options for me and decided it was ok for me to visit a sauna which i have done 3 times and all but once walked out having done nothing i havent been for about 1 and a half years and find i dont want to, my relationship has all but the sex going for it i love my friend very much and find casual sex non-fulfilling but do still have urges, i seem to overcome these with the knowledge i have someone who loves me and i them and we have a comfortable life a family (dogs,cats) and could not see me just losing it all so i could have a bit of in and out sometimes, i sowed my wild oats when i was younger and feel this may have helped me accept my present situation, or maybe the knowledge i can have a bit if i want stops any frustration building up whatever it is i am happy. I dont judge anyone by how they run their relationships as it is a very personal thing so as long as no-one is hurt including yourself then enjoy.
Sat Jan 27 21:28:43 2001

i need to air this and get feedback, i have know a friend for about four years only as a friend and a close one at that i thought, anyway he had less than i and my partner when I met him so we sort of helped out where i could, gave him stuff i didnt need or could afford to give away, we took him places with us not as a charity case but because we like him and he couldnt afford to do some of the things we did so we paid and didnt worry about it too much, we went away he stayed to look after the house animals etc we paid him, gave him smokes,grog etc bought him stuff from our trip, we have done this twice, the second time he overstepped the boundaries and helped himself to alcohol that was ours and seeing we had already bought him some and gave him money thought it was disrespecful , so xmas comes around he wants to do this with us and do that on new years but i say no i want a quiet one, well about aweek after new year i was driving him somewhere when he said oh well i found out who my real friends are over christmas, mmm ok i thought and let it go but after a think or two i thought i dont deserve that so i decided to just keep the friendship at arms length i would still ring to say hi and do things but would not feel i needed to help him in any way as his new friends could, but i havent heard from him in about 4 weeks, nothing not a peep, i suppose i'm using this wall because love not only extends to lovers but you grow emotionally with friends too, we share a common ailment and have spent lots of time together, i have shared things with him i havent my partner, i have no desires sexually and never could have for this person but feel used, abused and confused as if he were a lover, good thing though i suppose at least i havent a broken heart, how friends can treat you like shit baffles me, confused? good so am i but any comments would be good tks.
ray - Sun Jan 28 21:06:54 2001

I sympathise Ray. Sounds like you need to ask him directly what he meant. This brooding that goes on for weeks and weeks is so corrosive.
PaulD - Sun Jan 28 22:41:38 2001

ray, after *four* years of friendship, you're getting upset because he drank some of your grog?. What you have to ask yourself is: what's more important to you - a real friend (which means sharing), or your booze. I'm wondering what sort of relationship you had, where you put emphasis on the material, and your friend couldn't help himself to a drink in your home. C'mon ray, it's not as if you only knew him for a week !!!. Go on - give him a bottle of Scotch and make up :)
Jack - Mon Jan 29 1:29:07 2001

No way, he obviously takes everything you have done for him for granted and now there is an expectation there that you will always provide for him. He now has new friends if I understand correctly - are they subsidising his lifestyle now too? Perhaps this guy is a bit of a sponge. It's a good thing to be a giving and loving person but sometimes people end up expecting it and then act like spoilt brats when it is withdrawn. I think also tends to make them resent you a bit. Go figure, humans are wierd.
nik - Mon Jan 29 8:12:58 2001

ray, are you sure you're not overreacting to his "new" friends....as in feeling a little bit jealous, and him drinking your grog is an excuse?
Mon Jan 29 11:24:54 2001

drinking the grog was just one point that made me see he was taking too much for granted, i had to ask him to stop going to my fridge the moment he walked in the door everytime he visited its just about respect, i agree with niks post, it wasnt about the alcohol it was the principle of it all, and as far as being jealous, no i can honestly say thats not it I have a good life the one he's chosen is one i left behind many years ago and the thought of doing it again terrifies me, but tks to all the replies.
ray - Mon Jan 29 23:37:21 2001

Well, it sounds as though both of you have come to the conclusion that you didn't have a real friendship in the first place. And you didn't. You possibly can't stand the fact that he doesn't miss your naff, penny pinching, anal, score-keeping approach to human interaction. Bummer. Maybe you'll be able to line up a guiltier type for future bonding. Whatever you do - make that fridge a first priority. Hungry friends are bad investments.
Thu Feb 1 3:21:56 2001

So are bludgers
Thu Feb 1 8:45:45 2001