Pinkboard Graffiti Wall - Living with HIV 3

This wall is a discussion about living with HIV. This includes those who are living with the virus itself, those caring for people ill from the virus, those who encounter the virus in sexual situations, etc.

The previous wall covered an enormous range of topics from the RugUp campaign to education to statistics to the daily effects of the virus.

There has also been a lot of agro and misunderstandings, and misunderstandings causing agro. Please try to keep your temper and your sense of humour and not continually ascribe the basest motives to those who appear to disagree with you.

The start of the discussion
Living with HIV

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Re:
"ACON has very specific target groups and very specific projects to run."

That's why the point keeps being made on here that their message isn't reaching non-ghetto-queens.
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Re:
"That's why the point keeps being made on here that their message isn't reaching non-ghetto-queens."


except that it's ghetto queens that overwhelming seroconverting.
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New HIV cases at alarming levels: UN

June 1, 2006

AUSTRALIA'S AIDS epidemic is not easing, with the number of annual HIV diagnoses reverting to the alarming levels of the early 1990s, a United Nations report has found. "These trends underline the need to revamp prevention..." the report said.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
"except that it's ghetto queens that overwhelming seroconverting."

And just how would you know that? A note on each file saying "Ghetto Queen"? People from all areas and all scenes, including those in the inner city who don't mix on the scene, make up men who have sex with men and all are at risk. If ACON is to keep putting the "N" onto it's name, it should educate all of NSW, or replace the "N" with "G" for Ghetto. Just like if it's not going to focus on HIV/AIDS it should take the "A" off the beginning.
ord guy - Replies: 1, 2, add


WCOG (the Whatevah Council of the Ghetto) has a familiar ring to it. :)
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
"except that it's ghetto queens that overwhelming seroconverting."

"And just how would you know that? "


HIV is a notifiable disease. Thus certain details are reported to authorities, including Postcodes of residence - and which area health service they fall under.

The overwhelming numbers are coming from inner city locations (at least in Sydney) which is known in research circles as "gay sydney".

but you are right, all people are at risk. just some (alot) more than others.
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Re:
NSW Health data for 2005:

88.8% of all new HIV notifications were residents of Sydney.
The two area health services which cover the inner east and the inner west were where most of the Sydney notifications were recorded.

ACON operates regional branches in Northern Rivers, the Hunter and the Illawarra.
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Re:
'HIV is a notifiable disease. Thus certain details are reported to authorities, including Postcodes of residence - and which area health service they fall under. The overwhelming numbers are coming from inner city locations (at least in Sydney) which is known in research circles as "gay sydney".'

However, that's not accounting for the "untested/invisible" spreaders of the virus who don't identify as gay or don't live in the ghetto and won't go for testing for either cultural or other personal reasons: their details would, of course, not be on record anywhere. So when people living in "gay Sydney" notify serocnversion they could have caught it from someone in town for the night from Casula.

This is why campaigns should not be focussed exclusively on gay target groups but accross the board, even at "hetero" identifying people.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
I think "community" is being re-shaped and becoming more amorphous all over the shop: gay, poz wherever. Not all poz guys will identify with your idea of poz, not all gay guys will identify with your idea of gay. And drop the line in petty sarcasm - it's getting boring.
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Re:
Excellent point, ord guy. All it means is that queers in what 'is known in research circles as "gay sydney"' are getting tested. Married bi-men, closets, and huge swathes of certain ethnic groups do not live round here, are not getting any message, except that what they are doing is somehow shameful and should all be kept a secret. They are also the least likely to be using a condom.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
"88.8% of all new HIV notifications were residents of Sydney."

That's where people are most likely to go for testing, there are no doubt many in other areas who avoid going for tests and spread the virus.

"ACON operates regional branches in Northern Rivers, the Hunter and the Illawarra."

So what? The ACON safe sex campagins are not targeted at people in those areas.

None of these statements gets around the original post's point: that campaigns are ghetto focussed when the virus isn't fussy what suburb it goes to to replicate in, and as an AIDS council with a statewide name and statewide funding and resources, ACON should be covering wider turf with its campaigns, geographically, culturally and sociologically.
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Re:
"the virus isn't fussy what suburb it goes to to replicate in"

You make it sound like the virus decides where it goes.

sorry to inform you, but the virus goes whereever the host body goes. and most of the host bodies live and have sex in gay sydney. thus most of the concentration of virus and the way it spreads happens in gay sydney.

you can't escape that fact.

yes, certain groups aren't testing as much as they should, but even people in gay sydney aren't testing at the rate they should. that's why they call it "notifications" and not "infections". there are plenty of people walking around who don't have any (official) idea they are HIV poz and only find out when they get really sick and have to be hospitalised.

now if all these people "out in casula" are HIV poz and don't know it, then don't you think that they'd be some kind of catch up going on out there? the virus has been around for 25 years. you can't tell me that it wsa only 2 or 3 years ago that these people "out in casula" only started having sex in that time.

you have to accept the fact that it's gay sydney that has the most amount of sex, and the most amount of virus - thus the highest level of risk.
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Re:
I thought you had made a request to "drop the line in petty sarcasm - it's getting boring....."

the point that is being made is that there are large numbers of at risk and infected men that do not live within the ghetto. They are closetted, married, bi men, and some ethnic cultures for whom discussion of even having gay sex, let alone safe/unsafe sex, is met with cultural disfavour. they do not live in the ghetto. they might come into the ghetto for a knee trembler in a back room, or a stroll around a sauna, however, and that is where the infection of others that live locally takes place. that is why local infection rates are so high. what is the point of targetting the scene when the source of the problem lies far outside it?
Obviously these men do not get tested so your statement that, "most of the host bodies live and have sex in gay sydney" is plainly wrong. Time and again, arguments here have been for the campaigns to get their heads out of the ghetto.
To the end of last year, in NSW, 14,053 cases of HIV were reported. More than half of them live outside the ghetto and about half as many again have undiagnosed infections.
A guy can live healthily for 20 years without any complications from his virus and even if he is aware of a problem doesn't mean he's going to get tested or practice safe sex.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add


Re:
Thanks for elaborating so patiently, Pixguy, I'm just astonished it was necessary. Some people just can't find their way out of gay Sydney and so they imagine carriers of the virus can't either. The irony that the virus, in this particular scenario, is not finding it's way out of, but into, gay Sydney, is just too confusing a plotline for some - you'd wonder how they ever got through school, let alone get a job, but then let's face it, if they're employed in a certain sector we all know, they wouldn't need to be all too bright. And can you imagine actually volunteering UNDER people of that IQ? Because you'll have to when you go to work for CSN.
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Re:
'that's why they call it "notifications" and not "infections".'

People come into gay Sydney to see gay doctors etc, which is the district where their notifications show as, but they could just as easily have contracted the virus anywhere, i.e. Casula, Broken Hill, Timbuckbfrickintoo... Is THAT plain enough 4 you or R U STILL not getting it???
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Re:
Pixguy, you are disclosing so much about yourself. I appreciate it very much. Would you be open enough to tell us how you think you contracted the virus? There might be some lessons here for other informed, articulate guys.
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Re:
There are some very thick heads out there, and the only way they are going to "get it" information-wise is with the assistance of hammer and chisel.
The Professor Confirmed - Replies: add
Re:
People diagnosed are actually recorded against their Area Health Service of residence. Not the Area Health Service in which the notification is made.

There are 10,000 poz people living in NSW, 80% of them in Sydney. Apart from that there are two significant sub-populations in Northern Rivers and the Hunter, thereafter it's a few here and there.

80% of NSW notifications are among gay men and the greatest concentration of gay men are in Sydney. It's obviously not the only place in the state where gay men are or where infections are recorded but it is where the overwhelming majority of infections occur.
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"More than half of them live outside the ghetto and about half as many again have undiagnosed infections."

You have some evidence for that last claim pixguy? Contact the National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research. They'll be interested in seeing your data.
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Re:
well, like i said, i don't think 'how someone got it' is the issue. that implies guilt somehow. and i hate guys saying 'do u know who gave it to u?' as well, i own the act entirely.
however, if it helps, for me it was just bad communication. we were making light of hiv and i said something like,'so of course ur neg, right?' and he said 'yeah, right,' assuming i was poz. it was that simple.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
"So when people living in "gay Sydney" notify serocnversion they could have caught it from someone in town for the night from Casula."

Possible, but much more likely the other way around. There are thousands of poz gay men in Sydney including many who are undiagnosed and often highly infectious. There are not thousands of poz gay men in Casula. The statistical odds are against your suggestion. Could happen of course but much less likely.

Anyway, why all this angst about it "not being about Sydney?" Obviously Sydney is the epicentre city. Blind Freddie can see it. It doesn't mean that infections can't happen else where - they do.
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"A guy can live healthily for 20 years without any complications from his virus"

careful pixguy. You'll be giving neg guys the wrong idea :)
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Re:
you are contradicting yourself.

you are saying that ACON is too gay sydney focused in their education campaigns but that all these "married, bi, ethnic, suburban, rural" guys come into gay sydney to "see a gay doctor", go to a "sauna".

So don't they then get to see the ACON campaigns that are too directed at "gay sydney" when they come into "gay sydney" to access "gay sydney" services?

And what kind of spray gun approach would you have ACON take to educate these mysterious invisible guys are number in their hundreds of thousands? A safe sex ad in every suburban newspaper? (how much would that cost?) Posters on beat walls? (wouldn't that just scare the beat users away?)

Let us know exactly how you think the education campaigns should be done because by your accounts ACON doesn't have a clue, so maybe they need to be clued in. Make a practical suggestion as to how all these married, closeted, suburban guys can be reached in education campaigns (make sure you suggestions come in under budget though).

personally, i don't know why you are so resistant over the idea that it's gay sydney that has the major problem with seroconversions.

We are too slutty for our own good. Sex is too readily available, and we have the attitude that drugs are ok to take so long as the drugs you take are the ones in fashion.
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Re:
better to buy a lotto ticket than gamble that you'll be the one to "live healthily for 20 years without any complications from his virus". chances are, you won't be.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
"you are contradicting yourself."
"Obviously Sydney is the epicentre city."

You are missing the point, which is not one of geography but of culture. The argument is that a very large target group is not being addressed by campaigns that are focussed on the glammerati of Taylor square. It makes no difference whether they see the ACON ads or not if the campaigns do not relate to them. I think that was well explained above:
"there are large numbers of at risk and infected men that do not live within the ghetto. They are closetted, married, bi men, and some ethnic cultures for whom discussion of even having gay sex, let alone safe/unsafe sex, is met with cultural disfavour. they do not live in the ghetto. they might come into the ghetto for a knee trembler in a back room, or a stroll around a sauna, however, and that is where the infection of others that live locally takes place. ...what is the point of targetting the scene when the source of the problem lies far outside it?"

But you ask for 'a practical suggestion as to how all these married, closeted, suburban guys can be reached in education campaigns'. How does, "play around with men unsafely and you might be taking home something for your wife that you weren't expecting. your plans for a family might not happen. get some safe sex education. use a condom. or don't do anal" sound? I dunno, I'm not in advertising and I'm not the one paid to do these campaigns. As for how the orgs. spend their budget, I'm not even going to go there. You know, the police have special units to deal with the diverse sectors in the community, from Muslims and the different Asian groups to gays and lesbians. If we can get our heads out of the ghetto stereotypes, we might also see that the 'community' comprises a lot of men from cultures that force them to live their sexuality unspoken. Its not a hard concept.

Say hi to Blind Freddie from me. x
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
"There are 10,000 poz people living in NSW, 80% of them in Sydney."?
Sydney is formally divided into more than 300 suburbs. The metropolitan area is 12,145 square kms. The Sydney gay scene does not solely comprise the drugged up twinks outside Stonewall. Where are the safe sex messages for Catholic Italians in Leichhardt, Greeks in Rockdale and Hurstville, Lebanese in Lakemba and Bankstown, Koreans in Campsie, Jews in Bondi and Rose Bay, Indians in Westmead and Parramatta, Chinese in the Haymarket and Vietnamese in Cabramatta? Their own cultures will not even admit gay sex, let alone discuss safe sex education. And what about the 12% of the population that is over 65 years?
Are we saying they are immune to the virus because they don't live within a handbag's throwe of Taylor Square? I'd think it was only logical that such groups would have large numbers of undiagnosed cases of HIV due to the closetted approach to gay sex.
I think I've laboured this point enough. The arguments of the apologists for the org's inadequacies are just getting lame.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add
Re:
Well let me be more exact: Before the Area Health service boundaries changed a year ago, nearly 80% of all positive people in Sydney lived in two Area Health Services - South East Sydney and Central Sydney which roughly cover the inner east and inner west. The next largest group were on the North Shore.

ACON has an Asian project and also works with the Multicultural HIV and AIDS Service to reach other language groups. You may be surprised to hear it, pixguy, but a lot of those gay men you see around Taylor Square are Greek, Italian, Vietnamese, Thai, Lebanese and they don't all live in 2010.
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I should actually say a bit about the Multicultural HIV Service based at RPA, because they do good work. Around 20% of people living with HIV speak a language other than English at home and culturally and linguistically diverse pozzies split roughly 50/50 straight/gay. They've done a lot of work recently with Thai and Spanish speaking gay men and use ethnic press/radio to get safe sex messages out. ACON also has Silk Road, a project that works with a wide diversity of Asian gay men.
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Re:
'So don't they then get to see the ACON campaigns that are too directed at "gay sydney" when they come into "gay sydney" to access "gay sydney" services?'

Well duh! Again you're assuming EVERY person out of gay Sydney is coming in for sex. The point being made was that carriers of the vrus are probably in suburbs not target by ACON - which is bad, because the name of the org suggests (like it's first initial representing an AIDS org, which it is not) that it covers the state in its responsibilities and campaign coverage.

My purpose in making these points (as I think you well know) is to point out just how slack an effort is being made and how tunnel visioned the view of men who have sex with men is.

You can't escape from the reality that men who have sex with men are not all squashed together in gay Sydney, they're everywhere, and ACON is knowingly not campaigning to them. I can't see why you're so resistant to this reality, except of course that it would be admitting to a failure of duty of ACON.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
And what kind of spray gun approach would you have ACON take to educate these mysterious invisible guys are number in their hundreds of thousands? A safe sex ad in every suburban newspaper? (how much would that cost?) Posters on beat walls? (wouldn't that just scare the beat users away?)

They are not "mysterious" to most people (only those whose lives are cocooned in the Golden Mile) , and have been part of society long before there was any gay scene or ghetto.

Yes, Absolutely, posters on walls in every suburb! Why not? That's exactly the sort of thing I was meaning, but no not on beat walls, just placed where they are visible, billboard style.
ord guy - Replies: add


Increase HIV infection
Have you noticed in the porn industry how many barebacking movies there are these days? Maybe here is a source of the increase.......wanking without a glove....no what I mean
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"The point being made was that carriers of the vrus are probably in suburbs not target by ACON"

And I think that the data doesn't support that view. The majority of people living with HIV in NSW are located in inner Sydney - which is also where the substantial proportion of gay men congregate. That's where the major risk of new infections is located and the place of residence of those diagnosed tends to bear that out.

That doesn't mean that there aren't transmissions occuring elsewhere. There are. But it does mean that priority attaches to reaching high risk groups and locations.
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the US experience...
THE JUNE 1, 2001 Morbidity & Mortality Weekly Report — the same CDC publication that first reported in 1981 the “rare pneumonia” in five gay men in Los Angeles that would later be identified as AIDS — declared that “minority groups [of men who have sex with men] have emerged as the population most affected by HIV.” The report called for “behavior interventions” targeting minority MSM.
In 1988, the Washington Blade reported that HIV/AIDS education programs in Washington, D.C. were disregarding the rapidly rising rates of HIV infection among minority gay men.
Every time you perpetuate the notion that gay community equals gay scene you undermine the reality of our community. It makes it particularly difficult to talk about HIV/AIDS if you make the marginalised invisible and are in danger of ignoring an epidemic.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
These are just a few NSW places where men who have sex with men are currently online @ gaydar.com
Port Macquarie
Wollongong
Warilla
Byron area
Dubbo
Albury
Griffith
Leeton
Lismore
Maitland
Newcastle
Tamworth
Armidale
Griffith
Orange
Parkes
Mudgee
Coffs harbour
Tweed heads
Wagga Wagga
Nambucca Heads
Hunter Valley
Central coast
Northern Rivers
Byron Bay
Ashford
Bylong
Grenfell
Canowindra
Ulladulla
Inverell
Broken Hill
Goulburn
Nort macquarie
Nowra
Murwillumbah
Walcha
Cessnock
Riverina
Gosford
Oakdale
Blue Mountains
Bathurst
Tempe
Parramatta
Cowra
Tuggerah
Yamba
Bega
Tuggerawong
Ballina
Southern highlands
Evans head
Toukley
Narrandera
Deniliquin
Ashtonfield
Lake macquarie
Fletcher

If these are just the "out" guys (i.e. telling the world on gaydar), imagine the non-gay identifying ones in similar areas: are they being targeted in ACON campaigns? If not, why not, they're high risk group guys in NSW.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"The majority of people living with HIV in NSW are located in inner Sydney"

You can't possibly know where the ones not being tested are.

"That's where the major risk of new infections is located"

You don't know that at all.
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Re:
"And I think that the data doesn't support that view."

Data depends on people outing themselves and being tested. Do you think every man who has sex with men has done this?
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Evidence
You can't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars without evidence. the evidence is that the infections are happening to gay men living in gay sydney.

to put up billboards and posters in every suburb where some gay man might happen to pass by is a waste of limited resources.

Gay men having sex in gay sydney is the high risk that is attempting to be minimized by campaigns. targeting this nebulous group that we have no data on is a waste of resources. can't say it clearly enough, if there is no data then there is no way to intelligently target those people.
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You're right, you 'can't say it clearly enough'.
Five years ago the Morbidity & Mortality Report warned that “minority groups have emerged as the population most affected by HIV. The report called for “behavior interventions” targeting minority MSM. NOT scene queens, but those on the fringes, those left out of the loop.
Multicultural HIV Service based at RPA has also recognised there is a big problem.
If you believe that the only ones carrying the HIV virus are those that have been diagnosed, you're loopy.
Look at it this way. As of 2003 there were 4198543 people living in Sydney. If one in ten are gay, thats 419,854. Take off half for lesbians, that's about 210,000 gay men. If one in six is poz, that's 35,000 pozzies of whom 10,000 have been diagnosed. Even if these extrapolations are way off, that's still a lot of undiagnosed men, closetted by their various cultures, who are passing on the virus.
To simply say, "if there is no data then there is no way to intelligently target those people" is criminal. Of course they can be reached. But not at dance parties or dark backrooms where noone can even see their partner, let alone a poster on the wall. And not by throwing up the same tired old ads in the Star, week in and week out. There's a saturation point with ads, after you've seen the same thing 1000 times, you just don't notice it anymore.
By the way, if you think such a campaign would be a 'a waste of limited resources', wtf is the org doing with its resources? Exactly. More chardonnay anyone?
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add
Re:
"You can't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars without evidence. the evidence is that the infections are happening to gay men living in gay sydney."

The only evidence you are talking about is evidence of notifications. Do ACON wait for notifications to decide who to warn about HIV? Because if they do I'd say that's waiting until the horse has already bolted. If you're going to warn anyone about anything to do with HIV risk, it makes more sense warning those not already infected, that is, high risk/ potential seroconversion candidates. Don't you think list on here of areas outside gay Sydney (i.e. MSM in NSW on gaydar) is evidence of potential high risk behaviour.
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Re:
...but also, just as so many GLBTQs wait until they've moved to gay Sydney to come fully out, it's perfectly pheasable that they also wait until they move to gay Sydney to get tested and notify.

Furthermore, I never "notified" anyone of my serostatus or my address when I was tested, and I was assured of total privacy surrounding mt medical file.
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Re:
"Gay men having sex in gay sydney is the high risk that is attempting to be minimized by campaigns. targeting this nebulous group that we have no data on is a waste of resources."

I've just had an email from an old friend living on the Central Coast, "bemoaning his fate" and telling me how hard it is living with his viral problems and treatment issues, and depression, and how he feels isolated at times, and the stigma he feels hiding his serostatus. I'm sure he'll be charmed when I tell him he's from a "nebulous" bunch of non-existants who are a "waste of resources."
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
You might not have notified anyone - but your doctor sure did. It's the Law that doctors need to notified positive test results for certain infections. i suggest you contact him/her and ask for an explaination as to why you "total privacy" was breached. (they don't get your name, just other details).
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Re:
the 10% of the population is abit of a myth. most quality research on this particular topic puts the figure around 3% for gay men. abit lower for lesbians.
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Re:
how would you go about effectively warn those people who don't live in gay sydney and don't read gay sydney papers? remembering there are limited resources. in perfect world we'd be able to warn everyone and this epidemic would be over today, but we don't live in a perfect world and we have limited resources.
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Re:
You said "ACON is knowingly not campaigning to them". Do you have any evidence of this? Or is it just you personally are not seeing it?
- Replies: 1, 2, add
"If one in ten are gay, thats 419,854. If one in six is poz, that's 35,000 pozzies"

We know how many people are living with HIV in NSW. It's 10,000. The 'one in ten' thesis is from the Kinsey Report which was published in the US in 1948 long before what we now know as "gay culture' emerged.

These days we talk of 2-3% being gay in terms of identity.
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"There's a saturation point with ads, after you've seen the same thing 1000 times, you just don't notice it anymore."

You've argued vociferously for weeks that "the org" isn't doing anything about prevention. Now you tell us that the highest risk group is "saturated" with prevention ads.
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Re:
Well if you actually have had such an email, you'd of course point out that the comment has nothing whatsoever to do with people currently living with HIV. It's about relative locational risk for gay men in respect of acquiring HIV.
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Re:
There's been nearly 25 years of history in NSW to work out where HIV notifications occur and who is actually acquiring them. Every quarter, for a quarter of a century, clinicians have notified the health department about the nature and location of notified HIV transmission.

To pretend that there's some vast untapped pool of infection in NSW, beyond Sydney and acknowledged gay life is simply to fly in the face of epidemiological reality.
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re getting tested
i want to get tested but annonomously.
in w.a. i know you can at the sauna but chances are someone will recognise me. is there any other more non-confrontal places available?
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Re:
It's about critical mass: where most gay men are concentrated and where most of the sex happens.
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Re:
Any sexual health clinic will test you.
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I feel distressed reading this discussion. It's getting snipey and personal. It's not going to help anyone. Can we just chill please? There are two questions. How to send good messages to metro gay men? And how to target non-metro men and men who don't identify as gay? That's three questions really.

The "message" is surely just the same old same old. That is, use a condom for anal sex. It's so simple really. But how to put a human, believable face on it now that modern treatments are available? I would appreciate really honest "advertorials" from a range of pos guys - from "I'm perfectly fine thank you" through to "I'm too tired and unwell to work and my medications have unpleasant side-effects".

It should be possible to do this in a really intelligent, respectful fashion that could also include an anti-stigma element. I bet creative people could do this very successfully. Honesty is the best policy surely.
Paul Diamondo - Replies: add


Re:
"You said "ACON is knowingly not campaigning to them". Do you have any evidence of this? Or is it just you personally are not seeing it?"

Yes, the evidence recurs throughout this discussion, when you yourself admit that only specific geographical target groups (i.e. gay-identifying MSM living in gay Sydney) and that anything else is "a waste of ACON's time".
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Re:
To pretend that there's some vast untapped pool of infection in NSW, beyond Sydney and acknowledged gay life is simply to fly in the face of epidemiological reality.

Despite pages of evidence on here to the contrary, you still choose to bury your head in the sand and believe that transmission has geographical boundaries - where is the logic in this? Do you think those teeny viruses say to each other "we won't transmit here, it's not gay Sydney?" Do you thing queers only bareback in gay Sydney but use condoms outside those geographical boundaries? Honey, what drugs are you ON? Is this the level of intelligence of those responsible for the public health education of a whole state re HIV/AIDS?

Let me spell it out AGAIN: Notifications are not transmissions!
- Replies: 1, add
Please site a reference (web link) to your supposed pages of evidence.


Blimey, you guys can rationalise anything. LOL. The Kinsey figure was actually one in six. I chose one in ten as a more liberal figure. But 3%? What your source? Torture numbers, and they'll confess to anything. Does, 'These days we talk of 2-3% being gay in terms of identity,' mean you only count scene queens? 2% of the population would mean there are only about 40,000 MSM's in Sydney....6,700 poz, less than the number that have already been identified. Ya not making any sense Blanche.
Anyway, the point is that there are huge numbers of men not defined by our defintions of gay that still have sex with men. Because they do not heed safe sex messages, or relate to them, many are very likely to have seroconverted but not been tested. "ACON is knowingly not campaigning to them" because the ad campaigns are all focussed on the scene. We have covered all this.
"Now you tell us that the highest risk group is "saturated" with prevention ads." No, the reference was made to the same, 'use a condom' message being put about ad infinitum. This 'message' does not relate to the group we are discussing. Pay attention.
"Well if you actually have had such an email..." tsk, what a nasty queen.
"There's been nearly 25 years of history in NSW to work out where HIV notifications occur..." ya, but we are talking about undiagnosed seroconversions, blossom.
If I may say, all this sophomoric misconstruction of basic rationate process really does come across as somebody being very desperate to cover the orgs. arse.
:)
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
'You said "ACON is knowingly not campaigning to them". Do you have any evidence of this?'

Do you have any evidence that ACON IS campaigning to them? Please give details re current statewide campagns.
- Replies: add


Re:
"It's about critical mass: where most gay men are concentrated and where most of the sex happens."

The overwhelming evidence is that sex happens everywhere, it's not concentrated in gay Sydney - do you think guys outside those boundaries are all pledged to vows of chastity?
- Replies: add


Re:
"The 'one in ten' thesis is from the Kinsey Report which was published in the US in 1948 long before what we now know as "gay culture' emerged. These days we talk of 2-3% being gay in terms of identity."

1. How do you think it went down from 10% in 1948 to 2-3% following the explosion of gay liberation?

2. You do realise that HIV is not choosy about whether a person is part of the "gay culture"? If it was, the majority of global notifications would not be heterosexual.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
"how would you go about effectively warn those people who don't live in gay sydney and don't read gay sydney papers?"

I'd use the costly PR department the government provides me with.
- Replies: add


'bemoaning our fate..."
It was "frustrating that the numbers aren't coming down because it remains a deadly disease", even though antiretroviral drugs let people live much longer. "Eventually, it does reduce your life span." NSW Health director of communicable diseases, Dr Jeremy McAnulty. SMH June 3, 2006

"Treatment didn’t offer everyone a universal quality-of-life upgrade; it’s more about an ever-extending moment in which we get the opportunity to take our lives back, providing everything else is in sync. For some that hasn’t been possible, for others it’s worked very well. You can lead pretty much a normal life as long as you’re prepared to factor in stigma, discrimination, pills, DOCS ....when you weigh it all up, HIV still sucks."
Geoff Honnor Executive Officer of PLWHA (People Living With HIV/AIDS) NSW SXNews 01 June 2006

'Well-being' is largely self-assessed and the many comments about 'maudlin', bemoaning' 'HIV-defined lives' on this wall are a tad ingenuous in the context of Living with HIV. Some pos guys got lucky with their health, some lucked out...and LOTSA guys here just have no idea.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
"Well if you actually have had such an email..."

Are you suggesting I haven't? Are you in denial that PLWHAs live outside gay Sydney? That would seem fitting to the agenda of some posters on here.
- Replies: add


Re:
'There's been nearly 25 years of history in NSW to work out where HIV notifications occur and who is actually acquiring them. Every quarter, for a quarter of a century, clinicians have notified the health department about the nature and location of notified HIV transmission. To pretend that there's some vast untapped pool of infection in NSW, beyond Sydney and acknowledged gay life is simply to fly in the face of epidemiological reality.'

Maybe you should try checking your sources of data, because, according to this morning's Sydney Morning Herald, DESPITE thousands of deaths and countless safer-sex campaigns, the number of men diagnosed with HIV has again risen in NSW, 25 years after the first cases were reported in Los Angeles...The director of communicable diseases, Dr Jeremy McAnulty...said it was 'frustrating that the numbers aren't coming down because it remains a deadly disease', even though antiretroviral drugs let people live much longer. 'Eventually, it does reduce your life span.'...In Australia, while most of the 16,000 affected are gay men, the most recent annual report from the National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research registered a big jump in diagnoses attributed to heterosexual sex...Although the NSW figure is stable, heterosexual diagnoses nationally went from 7 per cent in 1996 to 23 per cent in 2004.'

Somehow I don't think those heterosexuals across the nation live in "gay Sydney". But Stevie Clayton is still convinced this is a gay disease. In the same arrticle she says: "...we keep it contained in the gay community."

That's cosy Stevie, we're so grateful to you for that.

Then she gats a tad mixed up by saying first that if needle programs were cut, HIV would "take off".

Followed by "It remains the case, 25 years on, the only sure way to protect yourself from HIV is to use condoms and lube."

So which is it Stevie? a gay disease confined to gay Sydney, or anyone's anywhere in the state your organisation represents? And what's keeping it contained, needle programmes or condom and lube? See people wanna know!
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


"What makes us not have an epidemic in the straight community is simply that we keep it contained in the gay community," said Stevie Clayton, chief executive of the AIDS Council of NSW. SMH Today. So, we are responsible for the rise in syphillus but at least we can keep our hands off the straightie's potaties. Thanks Stevie, it's deep how you can be so shallow.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
ACON
The topic of ACON is now closed. You are still being as childish as our federal parliamentarians about this discussion.
Panther Confirmed - Replies: add
Re:
Despite pages of evidence on here to the contrary, you ...

(Please site a reference (web link) to your supposed pages of evidence.)

-------------------------------------

The evidence I was referring to is the exaustive discussion covering these pages of PB, pleshing out sentence by sentence the details of where high risk sexual acticvity takes place. The most recent example are the brief listing of gaydar.com places in NSW where men are advertising for sex with men, that's not in gay Sydney. Then there's this morning's SMH article including detaila of statistics demonstrating the jump in national heterosexual diagnoses, from 7% to 23% between 1996-2004:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/more-men-have-hiv--but-its-not-panic-stations-yet/2006/06/02/1148956546566.html

...that article quotes both director of communicable diseases, Dr Jeremy McAnulty, and the National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research.

Furthermore are reems of statistics on the three HIV/PB posted by Pixguy alone, not to mention those posted by myself from several studies.
- Replies: 1, add


paul diamondo
I agree with you Paul, snipey and personal exchange serves no purpose. I always wonder that some guys cannot simply devate an idea until they have come to some shared truth without reverting to sniping. For example, on the matter of how to target the non-gay identifying men, I was thinking something along the lines of 'not bothered about using a condom with men? what are you going to tell your kids when they ask how mummy got AIDS?'
The "message" is surely is no just the same old same old. I also think your idea of honest "advertorials" from a range of pos guys is a good one, neg. men should be aware that HIV sucks - and how it sucks.
namaste :)
ps, didn't julia gillard just repeat exactly what tony abbott had said? not sure that grubs 'snivel' anyway.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
are you sure he's neg?
02-June-2006
PinkNews.co.uk writer

An Australian grandfather deliberately made friends with gay men on the internet to infect them with HIV, a court was told today.

Michael Neal, 48, appeared at Melbourne Magistrates Court charged with attempting to infect people with HIV and rape.

He met victims including one who he allegedly drugged and raped, on the internet and persuaded them into unprotected sex, telling them he was HIV negative, the jury heard.

Mr Neal said he had told the sexual partners the truth, but police believed he would infect more men.

He was denied bail and will return to court in September.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


campaigns II
here's another idea for a campaign...
"If I get HIV it doesn't matter cos I'll just take a pill every day and be alright" "Imagine a hangover that never ends. Imagine having a flu that will never get better. Imagine having diahoreah and nausea five days out of every week. Imagine having to just go back to bed bcos ur energy ran out. And not being able to work, and your money runs out, and you have to give up the mortgage and cancel the holiday. Imagine watching all that muscle you spent ten years building at the gym fall away in a month. And turning down all those hotties bcos ur libido just died. Some positive people are ok, some are not. Do you feel lucky, punk? Well, DO YA?"

Ooops, sorry, I forgot, I shouldn't 'define life by HIV', 'bemoan' or be 'maudlin'.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add


Re:
Go to a different doctor, be all embarrassed and claim you stood on a discarded syringe (or similar). If you really want anonymity, use a false name and pay without using Medicare.
The Professor Confirmed - Replies: add
Re:
There have been no postings on these Graffiti Walls to websites showing that there are vast pools of people with the virus outside of inner Sydney. A list of place names from gaydar does not constitute evidence of anything except that there are men outside of inner Sydney who are seeking sex with other men. The link you have provided to an SMH article does not say anything about the distribution of infected people.

Your point that people there are people outside of inner Sydney who are not reached by advertisements in the gay press is undoubtedly valid. Your claims about the numbers of these people is unsubstantiated.
Panther Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


Re:
Kinsey based his calculation on anyone in his study who'd ever reported even a single instance of homosexual contact. Famously, a lot of his subjects were prisoners.

In relation to your second point, of course the majority of global notifications are via heterosexual contact. What that has to do with the NSW situation - where around 80% of notifications are among gay and homosexually active men - is not entirely clear.............
- Replies: 1, add


The argument, on this wall, has been that no studies have been done into cultural, ethnic, bi-married and other groups outside the narrow confines of the inner city-defined notion of 'gay'. So calling for links to these studies is bewildering.

A typical culture to which this argument refers would be a Muslim man, with strong ties to his community and culture. Muslim men are proscribed from having sex with women before they are married. My experience in Muslim countries was of a lot of highly eroticised Muslim men engaging in all kinds of sex with each other. Safe sex was not even considered, as that was 'only for faggots'. Muslim schools do not teach safe sex. Using a condom would validify what was a covert act. Our concept of two men 'in a relationship' would have made them laugh, sex with men was just something you did while you were waiting to get married. I suspect that figures of 2-3% gay and 34% using condoms might prove to be well off the mark for this group. "Gay" is not even a construct for most other cultures.

Then there are the similarly oppressive cultures of the Catholic Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Koreans, Jews, Indians, Chinese and Vietnamese with regards to gay sex. And men with a wife who have sex with men. Only poofters get AIDS.

Are we really saying that there is no high risk group in any of this huge number of men, and that to gear HIV campaigns or even collect data on them is unnecessary?

"...men who are attached to gay communities are more likely to have had a recent HIV test. Homosexually active men outside gay communities and in regional areas may be less able to exercise informed sexual choices." The Medical Journal of Australia.26 Sep 2005.

The study, 'Monogamy and Marriage' reported that, of gay men surveyed who have casual sex outside their stable relationships, only 34% agreed always to use condoms.

JUNE 1, 2001 Morbidity & Mortality Weekly Report declared that “minority groups [of men who have sex with men] have emerged as the population most affected by HIV.” The report called for “behavior interventions” targeting minority MSM.

In 1988, the Washington Blade reported that HIV/AIDS education programs in Washington, D.C. were disregarding the rapidly rising rates of HIV infection among minority gay men. Black gay men eventually formed their own AIDS council.

OK, I'll just go and sit in the corner with Gillian and ord guy now.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
In NSW, HIV is still very much concentrated among gay and homosexually active men. Jeremy McAnulty made the point that heterosexual transmission rates haven't shifted here (they're around 15% of the annual total).

"Although the NSW figure is stable, heterosexual diagnoses nationally went from 7 per cent in 1996 to 23 per cent in 2004.

That year, a third were people from sub-Saharan Africa tested here, a quarter had had sex in risky countries or with people from them, and 18 per cent had sex with injecting drug users."
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
You could run with that - it's certainly satisfactorily scary - but a lot of HIV positive people would probably object to being portrayed as one-dimensional "victims," fit only to be pathologised and pitied. As you point out some poz people are doing OK some aren't, it's a very mixed experience. I know poz guys who have put on muscle since they've had HIV (not everyone "wastes away," check out David Low on the cover of SX)

In a recent study of seroconverters conducted by the National Centre in HIV Social Research one of the memorable comments made by participants was "I didn't expect a poz guy to have muscles and be dancing all night."

If wellness in HIV is to be some dark secret that we're not allowed to talk about because it doesn't provide a suitably "diseased" moral example for neg guys, you just end up perpetuating the myth that all pozzies are old guys dying somewhere out of sight. I don't think that will do much for infection risk mangement.....
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
I've made a number of posts pointing to ongoing work being undertaken with men from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds by a number of organisations. I've also acknowledged that obvious fact that transmission does occur outside inner Sydney. However, there's absolutely no evidence of a vast pool of undiagnosed infection in non-gay identifying homosexually active men.
- Replies: add
I hope Panther doesn't mind if I run this NSW Health press release out today, it sheds some light on the "outside Sydney" questions being raised:


HIV rates plateau in NSW but still too high

New data from NSW Health shows that there were 388 new notifications of HIV in NSW in 2005 compared to 407 in 2004 – this equates to a 4.7 per cent decrease.

NSW Health Director of Communicable Diseases, Dr Jeremy McAnulty, said the 2004 jump in the number of HIV cases reported in women returned to previously recorded levels in 2005 and the number of new cases reported among gay men has stabilised.

“Sustaining this change and further reducing risk behaviours is a personal and community challenge. Using condoms can prevent HIV, but consistent use is critical, especially with casual partners,” Dr McAnulty said.

“Between 2002 and 2003 there was an increase in HIV notifications, predominantly among gay men. A marginal decrease in HIV notifications followed in 2004 and 2005,” Dr McAnulty said.

“This stablisation of notifications can be attributed to the efforts of NSW Health, members of the NSW HIV partnership, and other agencies working with gay men.

These findings suggest that many men have changed their behaviour in response to safe sex messages,” Dr McAnulty said.

Results of ongoing studies of gay men’s sexual practice show a downward trend in the number of sexually active men reporting unprotected sex with casual partners over the last four years.

The largest proportion of notifications continues to occur in the 30 to 39 age group of gay man. In addition there has been a sustained increase in the proportion of notifications in gay men in the 40 to 49 age group,” Dr McAnulty said.

Outside of the Sydney metropolitan area, the proportion of notifications continues to decline with 64 notifications reported in 2003, dropping to 58 notifications in 2004 and 44 notifications in 2005.

The NSW Government continues to support and fund a comprehensive response to HIV/AIDS, via partnership models with communities, clinicians, researchers and community services.

Significant resources and effort have been put into health promotion activities to promote condom use and reduce HIV transmission rates.

Most recently, NSW Health’s public education campaign, Safe Sex No Regrets, which ran in 2005 and 2006, was developed in response to dramatically rising rates of notifiable STIs and HIV over the previous five years.


HIV/AIDS information is available on the NSW Health website at: http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/living/aids.html

Further advice can be obtained from your local Sexual Health Clinic or through the HIV info line on 1800 451 600.

-Ends-
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
"A list of place names from gaydar does not constitute evidence of anything except that there are men outside of inner Sydney who are seeking sex with other men. The link you have provided to an SMH article does not say anything about the distribution of infected people. Your point that people there are people outside of inner Sydney who are not reached by advertisements in the gay press is undoubtedly valid. Your claims about the numbers of these people is unsubstantiated."

Which bit don't you understand, Panther? That is absolutely sound evidence of men who openly have sex with men and make no secret of their being, therefore, in a high risk category (in fact, telling the whole world on the internet on gaydar) and do not live in "gay Sydney". While no one is able to put numbers to them, it's never going to be logistically possible to put numbers to those at risk. It's only possible to put numbers to those already seroconverted (which is useless for prevention purposes, as they've already caught it!).

But as for "Your claims about the numbers of these people is unsubstantiated" - what claims? Can you please quote my claiming any numbers on these people before accusing me of doing so? The expression "vast numbers of" was used by my opponent on this wall, whom, as you are as capable as I am of reading, is saying anything they can think of to argue the case for restricting campaigns to "gay Sydney", which my and other' postings prove is inappropriate and missing a chunk of the action that could feasibly explain (in part) the continuation of transmissions.

As for the link to the SMH article, I suggest you take it up with the SMH if you don;t find it adequate evidence of what myself and the SMH are telling you, but remember that the article does use quotes and data from the above cited legitimate sources, so again I don't see your problem with any of this. The article confirms my point, that the virus, it's carriers, and the transmission opportunities are not by any means confined to "gay Sydney", as claimed by posters on the opposing side of this debate.
- Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
Pixguy, The argument that I was responding to is not about the existence of others at risk of HIV, but the hypothesis that there are vast pools of "others" who are already infected.

Someone mentioned epidemiological studies. I am not an epidemiologist, but I do understand that they are able to determine where an infection might be found from people presenting with related diseases/infections. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology Also, there would be other indicators, such as more married women being diagnosed with HIV.

I am not aware of any reports that there are such correlations outside of gay men in the inner city. Without this any hypothesis that there is a significant pool of men with HIV who have not been notified about can only remain a hypothesis, and can not be taken as a fact.

Without such indications is it therefore not unreasonable for a majority of any effort in reducing the spread of HIV to be targeted at those who are believed most at risk?
Panther Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"That year, a third were people from sub-Saharan Africa tested here, a quarter had had sex in risky countries or with people from them, and 18 per cent had sex with injecting drug users."

Can you please clarify the point you are trying to make? Because all I can see in terms of figures is that heterosexual diagnoses shot up from 7 to 23 per cent - whether a third were from sub-saharan Africa tested here and a quarter had sex in risky countries or with people from them, or whether 18 per cent had sex with injecting drug users, that STILL doesn't mean the campaign message targeted at "gay Sydney" would have reached these people, which once again demonstrates a vital need to aim the message at a wider target group.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"What that has to do with the NSW situation - where around 80% of notifications are among gay and homosexually active men - is not entirely clear............."

The point being made was that the virus does not only affect homosexually active men and that the message about prevention is not being targeted appropiately.
- Replies: add


Re:
Panther, the targeting only of those most at risk is arguable the reason the transmissions have not come to a halt.

The people now notified as infected, before notifying/testing, were of course not known about. This means that we need to look at where prevention education is failing. You can't expect anyone to come up with figures of untested unnotified seroconversions and nor is it logical to wait until people have seroconverted to target them.
- Replies: 1, add
You said "only" when I said "mostly".


Epidemiology study without the resources of collection, analysis, interpretation and presentation of data would be a very strange epidemiology indeed.
Further, assumptions that men with a wife who have sex with men (whatever they are called) are also bonking their wives is a false syllogism.
'Related diseases/infections' may have no requirement to be reported.
It would indeed be unreasonable for a majority of any effort in reducing the spread of HIV to be targeted at Taylor Square if one source of that infection was men coming in from the margins.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
So wouldn't the obvious place to get these messages across be gaydar then? I don't use Gaydar so I don't know what messages they send.
- Replies: 1, add
Re:
Hang on, just because "some are doing alright" amd "have muscle" etc, that doesn't mean a thing in terms of prevention strategy - if you think about smoking campaigns, they don't tell you "some smokers are doing fine" and they relevant bodies don't hold back from campaigning just because not all smokers are ill.
ord guy - Replies: add
Re:
Can you please quote my claiming any numbers on these people before accusing me of doing so?

In http://www.pinkboard.com.au/graffiti/hiv/G52803 someone mentioned a vast untapped pool in the negative.

In http://www.pinkboard.com.au/graffiti/hiv/G52818 someone else argued that notifications are not transmissions, implying that they believed that there was a vast untapped pool. They attempted to use Pinkboard to justify this position.

As for the link to the SMH article

Someone quoted an SMH article as evidence of something that it contained no comment about. They also took comments out of context seemingly to give the impression that they were answering the question that was asked.
Panther Confirmed - Replies: add


"whom, as you are as capable as I am of reading, is saying anything they can think of to argue the case for restricting campaigns to "gay Sydney",

I haven't read anyone suggesting that campaigns be rerstricted to gay Sydney or that transmission is confined to gay Sydney. The point being made is that Sydney gay men represent the highest risk group in the state. If you have evidence to the contrary, by all means share it.
- Replies: add


My continuing frustration with trying to moderate this immoderate debate is that people continually take other peoples comments out of context and use them as the justification for getting angrier and angrier.

Also, by regular posters refusing to use a signature it becomes impossible to determine who is posting what. This only increases the amount of misunderstanding, anger and frustration expressed in the posts.

1) If the level of anger does not subside I will be forced to ensure that only calm, reasoned replies are permitted on this wall.

2) If regular posters continue to refuse to use signatures I will be forced to require this.
Panther Confirmed - Replies: add


Re:
This is just standard PR blurb, worded in the expected self-cogratulatory manner by NSW Health/NSW HIV partnership about themselves, in a predictable attempt to ice over the bad news that transmissions continue. Much of it is empty rhetoric, for example:

"The NSW Government continues to support and fund a comprehensive response to HIV/AIDS, via partnership models with communities, clinicians, researchers and community services.

Significant resources and effort have been put into health promotion activities to promote condom use and reduce HIV transmission rates."

However, of more relevance is this:

"Results of ongoing studies of gay men’s sexual practice show a downward trend in the number of sexually active men reporting unprotected sex with casual partners over the last four years."

All that that says is that the REPORTING has dropped - not that the unprotected sex itself has.

And all that the following may mean: "Outside of the Sydney metropolitan area, the proportion of notifications continues to decline with 64 notifications reported in 2003, dropping to 58 notifications in 2004 and 44 notifications in 2005" is that people outside of the Sydney Metro area are not testing - partly because they aren't targeted in campaigns!

Also, what that report means by the "Sydney metropolitan area" is not specified, but I'm fairly certain the author does not mean just "gay Sydney".
- Replies: add


Re:
The point here is that heterosexual infections haven't increased in NSW but have nationally (particularly in WA).

There's certainly a need to reach people in the heterosexual at risk groups identified and there is quite a bit of work going on in that area by the Multicultural HIV Service here in Sydney as well as by HIV IDU groups like NUAA.
regular poster - Replies: add


Re:
Panther, the targeting only of those most at risk is arguable the reason the transmissions have not come to a halt.
The people now notified as infected, before notifying/testing, were of course not known about. This means that we need to look at where prevention education is failing. You can't expect anyone to come up with figures of untested unnotified seroconversions and nor is it logical to wait until people have seroconverted to target them.
- Sat 3 Jun 2006 16:05:07 Replies: add
You said "only" when I said "mostly".

I said "those MOST at risk" The word "only" was not used at all.
- Replies: add
;)


Re:
"So wouldn't the obvious place to get these messages across be gaydar then? I don't use Gaydar so I don't know what messages they send."

Using gaydar as a medium for conveying sexual health is one option, yes, but again, it only addresses the people using that particular source of cruising.

The example of gaydar was given in demonstrating that men have sex with men outside of gay Sydney - but it doesn't account for non-gay-identifying men who have sex with men, who are everywhere, always have been, always will be.
- Replies: add


re non-gay-identifying men who have sex with men
These people are probably the least likely to go for testing and may not respond to outreaches by Multicultural HIV Service, HIV IDU groups and NUAA. They are not necessarily of other cultures, or intravenus drug users, and they are not openly practising same sex activity. They are in the closet, have heterosexual identities and have wives and girlfriends, heterosexual same sex peers and belong to mainstream culture. These people, not being IVDU or ethnically specific, need consideration when designing campaign messages. They currently get forgotten about.
regular user - Replies: add
"Panther, the targeting only of those most at risk is arguable the reason the transmissions have not come to a halt."

The data show that most people acquiring HIV are gay and homosexually active men aged between 30 and 49, residing in the inner east and inner west of Sydney. There are much lower numbers reported from elsewhere in metropolitan Sydney.

So, I'd suggest that gay and homosexuially active men living in inner Sydney would seem to be the targeting priority.

That doesn't mean that there should be no targeting in other areas. It just means that there is a clear priority.
regular poster - Replies: 1, add


"They are in the closet, have heterosexual identities and have wives and girlfriends, heterosexual same sex peers and belong to mainstream culture"

Then why has the rate of heterosexual transmission in NSW remained stable? Presumably these men would be infecting their partners, would they not?
regular poster - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"That doesn't mean that there should be no targeting in other areas. It just means that there is a clear priority."

So the earlier statement that "very specific focus" on "very specific target groups" was not saying that there should be no targeting at those in this clear priority group? If so, I wonder what sorts of campaigns are reaching them?
ord guy - Replies: add


Try to be nice
People who have signatures, please use them. Do "OG", "Ord Guy" & "Ordinary Guy" refer to one and the same person, or three similar people?

At the moment it seems that the only "rational" poster is PIXGUY.

Seriously, the sniping has to stop. Look at what's happened on the Green Wall. It's been turned into a an anonymous Professor-sniping ground, and as such has come to a grinding halt, effectively closed.

The long gaydar-list of NSW locations includes my own little red-neck corner of the State, so it is a valid assumption that unprotected sex is likely to take place "outside the scene". It is an equally valid assumption that the CONCENTRATION of infection is going to be where the greatest amount of MM sex is taking place.

Then there's the mindless attack on "aliases" on RUGUP. Of course I'm listed on there by my pinkboard "alias". If I put my real name, no one would have a clue who I was. Then there's the report of a RUGUP signee subsequently seen to be barebacking. If it's true, send a StatDec to the RUGUP people and have his name removed from the list.

Please remember, we are talking about people's lives here. This is not a "broken fingernail" topic. It drastically changes people's lives. I've mentioned the hell of living with CFS. Pixguy has mentioned the hell of living with HIV. Between us, the two Ps (Prof and Pix) have a great deal in parallel and a great deal diametrically opposed.

I've seen people come and go on this board, and some very strong minded people have left because of the back stabbing and bitchiness. It must be a streak of masochism that keeps me around at times; and it must be an even greater streak of masochism that allows Panther to put up with all the shit being slung across many walls.

I know "a standing prick has no conscience," so hit it with a cold spoon and let cooler heads prevail before posting.
The Professor Confirmed - I'm so cool, you could keep a side of beef in me... - Replies: add


I haven't read anyone suggesting that campaigns be rerstricted to gay Sydney or that transmission is confined to gay Sydney.

The overwhelming numbers are coming from inner city locations (at least in Sydney) which is known in research circles as "gay sydney". Thu 1 Jun 2006 11:36:29

The majority of people living with HIV in NSW are located in inner Sydney...That's where the major risk of new infections is located ...priority attaches to reaching high risk groups and locations. Fri 2 Jun 2006 11:39:49

There have been no postings on these Graffiti Walls to websites showing that there are vast pools of people with the virus outside of inner Sydney Panther - Sat 3 Jun 2006 13:44:12

MSM's who are not tested for HIV will not appear in the numbers. No study has been done to test how large these unknown seroconverters might be. Logic suggests there must be hundreds of them. When I seroconverted, I was diagnosed with the flu. If I hadn't gone back to my GP and said, 'the penicillin isn't working, can you do a path. test?' i still would not know I had seroconverted.

Are you all seriously suggesting that situation hasn't happenned to hundreds of undiagnosed MSM's in homophobic enclaves out there?

I dunno, I type really slowly and you guys still can't follow it, all i see in response is 'the overwhelming numbers are coming from inner city'.

MSM's who are not tested for HIV will not appear in the numbers.

How many little pixguys do you reckon there are who didn't put a johhny on their wang when they shagged some dude in a toilet block, bush, sauna or fuck club before rushing home to the wife or mum and dad in complete denial that they are homosexual or at risk? And how many of them do u think got a 'cold' or 'flu' for a few weeks and are now happily continuing their clandestine condomless nookies nightly? And how many of them do not relate to 'use a condom', because they think that only relates to inner city poofs?

Before you answer, let me guess..."the overwhelming numbers are coming from inner city"
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
"Then why has the rate of heterosexual transmission in NSW remained stable? Presumably these men would be infecting their partners, would they not?"

The rate of heterosexual trnsmission went up from 7 tp 23 per cent between 1996 - 2004 and notifications indicate no decrease since (remained stable just sounds better for apologists). However, in that recent two years of stable notification figures the transmissions could simply not yet have been accouted for due to people not testing.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
No-one has suggested that transmission doesn't occur outside inner Sydney.

But if youre right about all these non-gay guys having
sex with blokes and then "rushing home to the wife", you'd be expecting to see more female and vertical transmission cases occuring and they're not.

I think the problem is that you want this to be the case in order to blame organisations for not looking beyond Darlinghurst. If you stood back and looked at the epidemiological and prevention effort reality, you'd see where risk is concentrated and also that prevention messages are being framed in lots of locales other than 2010.

Your "org" issue might be getting in the way of a balanced perspective.
regular poster - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"I dunno, I type really slowly and you guys still can't follow it, all i see in response is 'the overwhelming numbers are coming from inner city'.

MSM's who are not tested for HIV will not appear in the numbers."

but they will show up eventually. eventually they'll get sick, be hospitalized and be tested. very few people can last '20 years' and be healthy with no medical intervention.

so whilst someone in that situation who is being infected today won't be "notified" for another 4 or 5 years, there are people from 4 or 5 years ago being notified now. and the numbers aren't overwhelming in outer areas. they are concentrated in inner sydney. there is no escaping that the disease is CONCENTRATED in inner sydney. that's not to say that it's not happening in other areas.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
I have already addressed your point. You could either scroll up or I can copy/paaste. OK, here ya go:
"Epidemiology study without the resources of collection, analysis, interpretation and presentation of data would be a very strange epidemiology indeed.
Further, assumptions that men with a wife who have sex with men (whatever they are called) are also bonking their wives is a false syllogism.
'Related diseases/infections' may have no requirement to be reported.
It would indeed be unreasonable for a majority of any effort in reducing the spread of HIV to be targeted at Taylor Square if one source of that infection was men coming in from the margins."
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add
Re:
If you read the Herald article you'll note that heterosexual transmission is stable in NSW. The increase you're referring to is Australia-wide.
- Replies: add
Re:
I've no idea about the point being made here except that:

"Further, assumptions that men with a wife who have sex with men (whatever they are called) are also bonking their wives is a false syllogism."

seems a very odd thing to say.

We now appear to have a vast army of married MSM who don't have sex with their wives and are all undiagnosed pozzies......
regular poster - Replies: add


I guess we should also ask whether all these married-but-celibate-MSM-at-risk would be convinced by your campaign idea about focussing on the worst case scenario in living with HIV, pixguy.

Would this huge pool of previously invisible at risk and undiagnosed guys be convinced by images of sick old poofs?

It wouldn't be about them, would it?
regular poster - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"so whilst someone in that situation who is being infected today won't be "notified" for another 4 or 5 years, there are people from 4 or 5 years ago being notified now. and the numbers aren't overwhelming in outer areas"

What you aren't remembering to take into account here is that 4 or 5 years ago people had not become as complacent about catching the virus as they have since, as the meds situation had not become as it has since. In another X amount of years there will most likely be a higher amount of notification on account of this.

And 4 or 5 is not necessarily how long. I know plenty of fellow pozzies who, untrusting of early combination therapies, stuck out from commencing until they had been HIV+ much longer than 4 or 5 years. One man I know has been positive for closer to 20 and is still not on treatment.

The idea that the disease is CONCENTRATED in inner Sydney only refers to notifications, NOT actual carriers who have as yet felt no need to test.

As has already been pointed out but has gone ignored, many people wait until relocating to inner Sydney to both come out of the closet as gay and have HIV tests, which would partly explain the notification concentrations. But in terms of where campaigns should be being targeted, it makes sense that now is a more important time than ever before to be aiming for non-inner city risk category people, who are no longer so scared of HIV, knowing the treatments have changed prognosis but still in part denial of their own chances of seroconverting. The most obvious are the non-gay-identifying men who have sex with men, who have female partners socially - and no, they may not also be infecting their female partners so much as has been suggested, "straight" guys make out their sex lives with women are much busier than they actually are most of the time.
ord guy - Replies: add


This wall seems to have become a part-time job for me. :)

My earnest concern is that we are killing each other slowly. I do believe the concerns I raise about the reasons for unsafe sex are sound ones. In my experience, I have encountered many who feel disconnected to 'community' and are therefore not motivated to commit to responsible sex with casual partners. They are also alienated and stigmatised by HIVphobia.

And I also believe it is very likely that a great many men that don't relate to the label 'gay' are not being reached by the safe sex message. I think this discussion has raised a number of other important ideas too.

However, the tone of this wall is that every post I make is met with sarcasm (we now appear to have a vast army of married MSM etc)and sniping (your "org" issue etc)from the cover of anonymity.

I didn't join this discussion to become embroiled in a bitchfest, i had hoped some of these ideas could be discussed calmly and with open minds. I suspect I am wasting my time here because open debate and the possibility of change is clearly not on the agenda of many of this wall's participants.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add


"CONCENTRATION" seens to have stuck.
Perhaps that is part of the problem, that people in remote backwaters think they are isolated from the gay community and therefore isolated from what is still perceived to be a "gay" disease.

I'll use the American-coined term "low-down" to refer to MSM with wives. It's again about honesty. Low-downs act straight, are usually part of a select circle of men who have sex with each other "on the low down". Some eventually admit to themselves they are gay and terminate the straight relationship, others don't.

So perhaps, as Pixguy is suggesting, the real target needs to be these remotely located people who mistakenly believe they are safe from infection because of their remoteness?
The Professor Confirmed - I'll never be cruel and a Gin & Tonic again! - Replies: add


Re:
Pixguy, it's highly unlikely that this wall will lead directly to changes in people's lives. It's a computer bulletin board, not a real life discussion. It sounds to me like you're distressed, frightened, lonely and a bit angry. Pinkboard can't meet your needs right now. It's just too ephemeral. Perhaps this is a first step to getting to know other (real) people in the same situation. Forgive me if I've stepped over the mark.
Paul Diamondo - Replies: 1, 2, add
I have blocked some people from posting on this wall due to statements which I consider libelous.
Panther Confirmed - Replies: add
"As has already been pointed out but has gone ignored, many people wait until relocating to inner Sydney to both come out of the closet as gay and have HIV tests, which would partly explain the notification concentration"

People have always moved to the inner city in order to be gay but they don't tend to bring HIV with them. It's more often something that tends to happen after they arrive.
regular poster - Replies: 1, add


Re:
LOL Paul, you make me sound like a guileless twink just stepped off the boat from Tasmania. But thanks for your consideration.
It's not people's lives that I expected might change, just their ideas. I suppose I find it disappointing that advance in the community is often encumbered by pugnacious attitude rather than minds opening to the possibility that something might be so. After all, what we need here are ideas.
ps. I get to know a lot of (real) people. :)
namaste
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
if i catch say ghonorreah from a guy and say he was also poz will i also catch hiv or just ghonorreah.
for argument sake say i caught it in the throat.
would be interested to know
- Replies: 1, add
Re:
you need to get the HIV virus into your blood stream. it's unlikely but apparently possible this will happen doing oral, for example if you have had dental work or open cuts on your gums... but really its a bum thing. If you don't use a condom, it can enter ur blood through the anal lining if you are bottoming or up your urethra if you top. the former is more common.
having gonhorreah will increase your chances of getting HIV.

now who was saying that the safe sex message is getting through?
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
"People have always moved to the inner city in order to be gay but they don't tend to bring HIV with them. It's more often something that tends to happen after they arrive."

There's no way of you knowing that, for what purpose do you make these wild guesses?
ord guy - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
"it's highly unlikely that this wall will lead directly to changes in people's lives. It's a computer bulletin board, not a real life discussion."

Obviously it doesn't write itself, Paul :-) But then perhaps this is the reason RugUp has not taken off in making changes.
ord guy - Replies: add


In mediaeval times, the saint Sebastian was evoked for protection from the plague. In fact there's a branch of epidemiology devoted to studying the path of the plague by the placement and dedication of churches to Sebastian, known as hagiotopographic-isochrony.
I guess we have our own icons that we think are protecting us from our plague. And just as in those times, people fill the vacuum of answers with the imaginative instinct of their lively spirit. Thus, we started spinning a fine web of stories about plague....
"if i catch say ghonorreah from a guy and say he was also poz will i also catch hiv or just ghonorreah" nevertheless, people are getting the safe sex message LOL
"People have always moved to the inner city in order to be gay" so that's how you do it! I must tell all the queens that formed relationships and moved to the burbs and the country to be domestic and 'normal'.
"we don't need any tests to be applied to know that non-gay identifying MSM's living in the burbs are all negative" and..
"they don't tend to bring HIV with them. It's more often something that tends to happen after they arrive." so where is the HIV customs station then? Redfern or Erskineville?
etc etc etc. ...
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
I guess we should also ask whether all these married-but-celibate-MSM-at-risk would be convinced by your campaign idea about focussing on the worst case scenario in living with HIV"

For starters, they wouldn't be celibate - just maybe not doing much with their wives.

"Would this huge pool of previously invisible at risk and undiagnosed guys be convinced by images of sick old poofs?"

Ah but perhaps they'd be convinced by images of non-poofs though - use your noddle :-)

This whole thinking that gay sex is (only) concentrated around 2010 has to change. It's only reflective of the mentalities of those putting together campaigns - they don't know a life away from the scene I think, there's where the problem lies, and they just can't help themselves from wanting this whole thing in a little glomesh Golden Mile bag.

I suggest getting some non gay-identifying (metro-style) bisexual and non-inner city guys (and gals) in on campaigns, and actually target them outside of gay Sydney.

The numbers of the many scattered men having sex with men (i.e. those away from that concentrated ghetto zone) is easily greater than the numbers of men having sex with men inside of the zone. They aren't likely to go for testing out in those burbs, and many will remin non-gay identifying, especially in this era when guys are no longer as defined by their sexual orientation.

Maybe these types described do usually wait until they've moved to queer street to do their testing and shape the notification stats, but hey, isn't that a bit late to be thinking prevention strategies?
off the map - Replies: add


Re:
All things considered, I think it's a much more reasonable proposition than the supposition you've been advancing. If there was a vast pool of undiagnosed HIV among non gay identifying, homosexually-active and heterosexually-partnered men, it would have shown up by now; particularly in their wives and girlfriends. It hasn't.

Transmission clearly occurs outside of the inner Sydney and the surveillance data quoted above is testament to that fact. But your insistence that targetting should be significantly re-directed to that area isn't borne out by either surveillance or behavioural data.
regular poster - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
"If there was a vast pool of undiagnosed HIV among non gay identifying, homosexually-active and heterosexually-partnered men"

No one but you said "a vast pool", but their scattered order does not make the numbers insignificantly low.

"...it would have shown up by now; particularly in their wives and girlfriends."

Not necessarily, their sex lives are poor (because they're actually closet homos anyway) and they maybe use contraception (condoms?).

"But your insistence that targetting should be significantly re-directed to that area isn't borne out by either surveillance or behavioural data."

It's borne out by common sense.
ord guy - Replies: add


"especially in this era when guys are no longer as defined by their sexual orientation."


when did that happen?

I'm pretty sure that outside of the inner city homophobia is still rampant.

i'll just check out my window and see..... yep!
- Replies: 1, add


they maybe use contraception (condoms?)

they dont' use condoms when they have sex with men (ever heard of HIVphobia?) but they use condoms with their wives?

this is making more and more sense as we go along!
- Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
Yes, very sensible indeed! I am led to believe that under normal circumstances, a woman having vaginal sex is unlikely to become infected. However if her husband is a closeted gay/low-down, then there is always the possibility that he has suggested anal sex to the wife which may result in transmission.

I'm amazed at how many "straight" guys love doing a woman up the ass, but as soon as it's another man they're suddenly revolted by the idea.
The Professor Confirmed - Good boys never win. - Replies: add


Re:
"I'm pretty sure that outside of the inner city homophobia is still rampant."

And that stops closet queers bonking each other?
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
"they maybe use contraception (condoms?) they dont' use condoms when they have sex with men (ever heard of HIVphobia?) but they use condoms with their wives?"

You obviously don't know this, but that's how boys and girls avoid having babies (and those boys can never be too cautious about the explaining they'd have to do if an STI was passed on). As for wearing them when they do it with men, for rural and suburban closet queers it's more often than not in some dark laneway or draughty toilet block where there aren't any condoms. What's more, it's this group of MSM which is the clear majority, hands down, compared with the small pink tip of the iceburg that is the gay scene.

You really should enlighten yourself on the subject of non-gay sex and sociology, get out more, there's a whole other world (the real one) to be found beyond Taylor Sq
:-)
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


I think it is time to agree to disagree about who is located where.
Panther Confirmed - Replies: add
I think the figures discussed above made it seem quite likely, that if 1 in 10 men have sex with men, and 1 in 6 of those seroconvert, that there should be 30,000 positive men, out of 2 million, in this state; Only 10,000 have been diagnosed. If MSM's outside inner Sydney seroconverted at half the rate of those in the ghetto, that's still 5,000. If we are even more conservative and say its only likely to be half that number again, that's still a lot of positive MSM's coming into the city to play at SOPV's etc. The science of probability would predict that logically, there is a very big problem of an unrecognised source of HIV infections happening while everyone argues to the contrary. These are positive men who knowingly have unsafe sex because the monicker of the 'gay plague' does not relate for them.
One of those contrary arguments is that wives of these non-gay MSM's would be showing indications of infection. However I suspect that the nature of their relationship would be that an active sex life would be rare. And heterosexuals use condoms for the very real reason that they may not want to breed. A lot of women, apparently, have adverse reactions to the puill. And the male partner would most likely be using a condom because he would know there may be some chance of his passing on something he had picked up.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add
Re:
p.s. be right back, I'm just going to the inner city to be gay. LOL
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
"isn't borne out by either surveillance or behavioural data" because, apparently, everyone is busy surveying inner sydney, 'where people go to be gay.'
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
"I'm pretty sure that outside of the inner city homophobia is still rampant."

And that stops closet queers bonking each other?

never said that. just questioned whether it's true that "in this era when guys aren't defined by their sexual orientation".
- Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
Re: Mon 5 Jun 2006 20:33:40
"they maybe use contraception (condoms?) they dont' use condoms when they have sex with men (ever heard of HIVphobia?) but they use condoms with their wives?"

"You obviously don't know this, but that's how boys and girls avoid having babies"


using condoms is jsut one way of avoiding having babies. and more often than not it's the least preferred way. contrary to what you believe, i'm not living in "taylor square" and know this through direct conversations with straight couples about their contraceptive methods.

the assertion that MSMs would use condoms with their wives/girlfriends but not with their anonymous male sexual partners seems ridiculous to me. HIVphobia (related to homophobia) is still rampant. I know GAY men who are paranoid about catching HIV. This paranoia would naturally be quite abit higher for MSMs so they wouldn't routinely go around bonking other boys wihtout condoms (that's not to say that occasional slip ups don't happen). Them getting an STI would more than likely throw the spotlight on their sexuality and affairs, so they'd be so much more cautious about condom use with their male partners.

As for condoms "not being available" at beats - don't you think people are capapble of forward thinking and bring their own?

your argument is clutching at straws to try and defent the reason why there aren't lots of hetero women married to MSM who are seroconverting. just face it. those cases are in the minority. the majority (85%+) is gay men living in inner city.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
"However I suspect that the nature of their relationship would be that an active sex life would be rare."

Why?

"And the male partner would most likely be using a condom because he would know there may be some chance of his passing on something he had picked up."

But he wouldn't wear a condom with a guy?

The science of probability would suggest that this undetected pool would have been picked up at some point in the more than two decades in which the NSW epidemic has unfolded. There are certainly men who have seroconverted in the circumstances you outline but there's absolutely no evidence of "a very big problem" in this respect.
regular poster - Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


"Yes, very sensible indeed! I am led to believe that under normal circumstances, a woman having vaginal sex is unlikely to become infected."


Prof, the majority of people living with HIV worldwide are women, the vast majority of whom were infected in just this way. There are nearly one thousand women in NSW living with HIV who, similarly, were largely infected in this way.
regular poster - Replies: 1, 2, add


The paradox with having a narrow point of view is that we can never acknowledge that we have one. Ireally think to understand what is being said, you need to open your mind.

The difficulty with this discussion is there is a rigid mindset about the nature of sexuality and behaviours. Sexual orientation runs along a continuum as Kinsey established. Thinking that human sexuality is either one extreme or another creates myths about expected behaviour. The myriad expressions of homosexuality in this country cannot be judged in terms of a pre-existent, unitary, empirical sexual experience. There is a wide cultural diversity in male homosexuality, representations, discourses and experiences of action and identity.(Just because he likes it up the arse doesn't mean he's going to be shaking his pom poms in the Mar 4 parade.) Once again, I think we need to get our heads out of the gay ghetto.

Gay (and the need for safe sex) is a construct and a politic with which many MSM's have no empathy. They are conditioned to create a heterosexually composed household including fatherhood and feel pressured by family obligations or social expectations, to marry. They do not necessarily desire (exclusive) sexual relations or romantic partnerships with their wives. They don't see same-sex attraction as definitive, they situate themselves in relation to workplace and family. They have no thoughts about 'coming out' and beyond connections with sexual partners, the concept of a 'gay community' and its problems with HIV has little or no meaning.

We need to question our narrow models of identity which presume a singular/homologous gay identity. In a discussion of HIV infections, biased identity-politics orientation is of little help.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add


Re:
i agree with some of your post but youve got to take into account a significant no. of these women are just not having sex with there husbands.Some women after childbirth dont want sex anymore or they just stay married for sake of children.

WE cannnot deny most hiv transmission is amongst gay men
we need to accept this blaming others doesnt make it any better for us. It has been done lets get a cure.
- Replies: add


Re:
Much of what you say, I agree with but in a discussion of HIV infections we shouldn't ignore what epidemiological and behavioural data are telling us.
- Replies: add
Re:
"the majority of people living with HIV worldwide are women, the vast majority of whom were infected in just this way. There are nearly one thousand women in NSW living with HIV who, similarly, were largely infected in this way."

Less than a thousand women is a tiny figure compared with MSN, and it's thoroughly documented that vaginal intercourse is of lower risk than anal.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"However I suspect that the nature of their relationship would be that an active sex life would be rare."

Why?

Because of all the reasona outilined clealry already: he has a closteted liking for sex with men, and his marriage is mainly a social/peer pressure choice.
- Replies: add


Re:
"And the male partner would most likely be using a condom because he would know there may be some chance of his passing on something he had picked up."

'But he wouldn't wear a condom with a guy?'

Of course not, he's uninterested in protecting the guy or concealing anything from him (whereas he has sexual secrets from his wife). And his casual sex is seldom planned and done in places without condoms.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
'There are certainly men who have seroconverted in the circumstances you outline but there's absolutely no evidence of "a very big problem" in this respect.'

How much evidence do you need and how "big" a problem does it need to be? If HIV is not going anywhere, then surely that's enough reason to address this.
- Replies: add


"WE cannnot deny most hiv transmission is amongst gay men.." not all men who have sex with men are "gay men". (see above).

"we need to accept this blaming others..." I removed the word blame from my vocabulary long ago. Identifying a possible source of infections is not a judgemental thing.

"we shouldn't ignore what epidemiological and behavioural data are telling us..."

Can you please show me the epidemiological and behavioural data for married, closetted bi-men in the 'burbs and for Catholic Italians in Leichhardt, Greeks in Rockdale and Hurstville, Lebanese in Lakemba and Bankstown, Koreans in Campsie, Jews in Bondi and Rose Bay, Indians in Westmead and Parramatta, Chinese in the Haymarket and Vietnamese in Cabramatta? Their own cultures will not even admit their clandestine forays into beats and SOPV's, let alone discuss safe sex education andy most often do not have sti tests.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add


Re:
just questioned whether it's true that "in this era when guys aren't defined by their sexual orientation".

No they aren't anywhere nearly as defined by a sexual orientation as in dacdes past. Being gay is a big deal for some still, but it's no longer the defining factor of an increasing majority.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"I'm pretty sure that outside of the inner city homophobia is still rampant."
And that stops closet queers bonking each other?


never said that. just questioned whether it's true that "in this era when guys aren't defined by their sexual orientation".

----------------------------------------

That's one reason fewer are interested in having a mardi gras, fewer guys are wither "proud to be gay" or whatever, that's a thing of days gone by. The gay lib movement is ancient history and people consider their sex lives private and personal.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
Are you confirming my "belief" that women are reasonably safe from HIV through vaginal sex, or are you shooting it down? I would suspect that the numbers of women you are describing have participated in "back door" activities, but never thought to mention it in relation to diagnosis. If I am wrong about this, I welcome a clear and concise correction.
The Professor Confirmed - They can still see him, singing on the corner... - Replies: add
Re:
"Of course not, he's uninterested in protecting the guy or concealing anything from him (whereas he has sexual secrets from his wife)"

but what about protecting himself? I think you really don't have a clue about the paranoia alot of "non-gay/MSM"s have entrenched in them.

and it is so much easier to use a condom with anonymous guys than to have to make up an excuse as to why you should use a condom with your wife when she isn't in her fertile stage of her cycle.

"And his casual sex is seldom planned and done in places without condoms."

again you don't give MSMs much intelligence. there are plenty of things to do that are safe and don't need condoms.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
What the data tell us is that the vast majority of annual HIV notifications in NSW occur in gay and homosexually active men aged in their 30's and 40's, most of whom report residence in the inner east and west of Sydney. The data also tell us that around 20% of the 10,000 people living with HIV in NSW speak a language other than English at home and of that 20%, roughly half identify as gay and half as heterosexual.

A lot of work does go on with at risk culturally and linguistically diverse communities but the prevention priority is pretty clear from the data.
regular poster - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
Maybe were at a loss at what proud to be gay means.The vast majority is turned off by militants.Take david off big brother for instance,he goes over the line the straight community do not need to know about beats and there locations,what we do in bed etc all they need to know is were the same as them,we can have loving relationships (they dont need to know how often either).They are sick of gays being victims weve played the tune for too long.We need to get control of our lives.Many of us still have issues even if we say we dont.We say were straight acting-what is this nonsence if we fk around with the same sex were homosexual plain and simple.some of us may be camp but then alot of straight guys are also.Where are our real role models.
matt - Replies: 1, add
That's one reason fewer are interested in having a mardi gras, fewer guys are wither "proud to be gay" or whatever, that's a thing of days gone by. The gay lib movement is ancient history and people consider their sex lives private and personal.

There are many people out there who accept a person regardless of sexual orientation, but there are a greater number who would still beat your head in given the opportunity.

I have my own pet theory that most homophobes are closeted gays themselves who can't or won't admit it to themselves.
The Professor Confirmed - Replies: add


serconversion postcodes are no part of the notification data stored at NCHECR
The National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical research surveillance and research data publications show no evidence of which areas seroconverters reside in (not that that would mean much, as they don't necessarily catch HIV on their doorsteps), but is limited to which state they reside in:

http://web.med.unsw.edu.au/nchecr/


Even if there were such details, why do you still not understand (or refuse to) that data depends on people outing themselves and being tested. Do you think every man who has sex with men has done this?

This means that all this talk of "priority", "reaching high risk groups and locations" etc is unfounded. Therefore, when it's continually pointed out that many carriers of the virus are probably in suburbs not targeted, the replies like "the data doesn't support that view" and "every quarter, for a quarter of a century, clinicians have notified the health department about the nature and location of notified HIV transmission" are actually only half of the picture and are misleading, because nor does the data support the view that "the evidence is that the infections are happening to gay men living in gay sydney", "that's where the major risk of new infections is located", "to pretend that there's some vast untapped pool of infection in NSW, beyond Sydney and acknowledged gay life is simply to fly in the face of epidemiological reality" etc.

The example of gaydar was given in demonstrating that men have sex with men outside of gay Sydney - but it doesn't account for non-gay-identifying men who have sex with men, who are everywhere, always have been, always will be.
These are many in numbers, of extremely high risk category and are not being targeted in campaigns.

To dismiss the significance of this group with comments like "targeting this nebulous group that we have no data on is a waste of resources", "there is no way to intelligently target those people" and "to put up billboards and posters in every suburb where some gay man might happen to pass by is a waste of limited resources" is not merely short-sighted, careless and senseless. It proves is that someone is DISINTERESTED in anyone not integral to the "gay Sydney", and verging on heterophobic. This is demonstrated by comments like "Would this huge pool of previously invisible at risk and undiagnosed guys be convinced by images of sick old poofs?"

Let me spell it out AGAIN: Notifications are not transmissions!
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
And what does your data tell you about the vast majority of non-gay identifying MSM's from all those cultures that do not test? I really wonder how many times, and in how many different ways, a point has to be made before some people will address it. Your data collates positive results for HIV from five path labs in Sydney. It is totally irrelevant to the issue we are discussing here. Simply repeating "the prevention priority is pretty clear from the data" does not make it so, all it says is that someone can't be bothered looking at the problem.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
"I think you really don't have a clue about the paranoia alot of "non-gay/MSM"s have entrenched in them"

I would suggest you get clued up on the phenomenon of non-gay identifying MSM's belief that they are at low risk from HIV because "that's a poofter's disease."

"it is so much easier to use a condom with anonymous guys"

flies in the face of all the evidence and explanations of why so many men are having UAI.

"you don't give MSMs much intelligence. there are plenty of things to do that are safe and don't need condoms"

the drive to raw fuck the arse off some hotty totty doesn't have much to do with 'intelligence'. if it did, infection rates would be negligible. many of those 'other things' to which you refer are not common sexual practice for non-gay identifying MSM's; thats just too gay. Also, consider that one thing a gay man can give them that their female partner can't, is a dick up the jaxy.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add


Re:
I do believe that an individual and collective sense of self esteem, even pride, is intrinsic to the safe sex debate. We need to feel good about ourselves and the community, to take care of ourselves and others. What message does it give, especially to younger gays just coming out, that the Federal government continues to deny us the same human and legal rights in regards to same sex relationships as any other hetero Australian? They are so determined to invalidate our lifestyles that they perversely overule any state initiatives for recognition.

I agree with you totally, what we need are role models, and leaders. (But not these powerbroking, cocktail-networking wannabe-leaders that get their heads in the gay rags every week.)

ps. 'straight acting' is just so gay.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"What the data tell us is that the vast majority of annual HIV notifications in NSW occur in gay and homosexually active men aged in their 30's and 40's, most of whom report residence in the inner east and west of Sydney."

How can "the data" tell you what goes unreported? It can't, and non-gay-identifyng MSM who don't have tests are hardly going to go shouting it from the rooftops.
Their wives and partners would not necessarily seroconvert because transission is less likely via vaginal penetration and because in any case condoms are used (not the pill, as someone's "friends" said - not very scientific) and because these men's sex lives at home with their female partners hardly exist - because they're actually closet queers. They would not have shown symptoms to prompt them to be tested because the window period following seroconversion can mean no symptoms for many years in some cases.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
"the drive to raw fuck the arse off some hotty totty doesn't have much to do with 'intelligence'. "

that's your opinion - but the reality is quite different for the majority of men (both gay and MSM) who've managed to keep practising safe sex for over 20 years.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
Your post is just full of potholes in it's logic.


"How can "the data" tell you what goes unreported? It can't, and non-gay-identifyng MSM who don't have tests are hardly going to go shouting it from the rooftops."


How do you know that they DON"T get tested? Just becaese there are no notifications, doesn't mean there aren't any tests being done. Find some stats to prove that there are substantially less tests of men in the western suburbs than there are in the inner city.


"Their wives and partners would not necessarily seroconvert because transission is less likely via vaginal penetration"


absolutely, completely false. Transmission through vaginal sex is HIGH RISK sex. hence the explosion of HIV throughout the heterosexual third world.


"and because in any case condoms are used (not the pill, as someone's "friends" said - not very scientific)"


evidence that condoms are the preferred method of contraception for heterosexuals? your assertion is just as "not very scientific" - and defies logic.

why would hetereosexuals use condoms when even homosexuals don't like to use condoms? In married relationships contraception not protection is the chief concern. And there are plenty of less desensitizing methods of contraception than using condoms.


"and because these men's sex lives at home with their female partners hardly exist - because they're actually closet queers."


Now this is an interesting one. I'd like to hear from people who've come out later in life after they've been married to comment on this because my feeling would be that they'd need to have a semi-regular sex life with their married partner to keep up appearances (to keep her in the dark).

"They would not have shown symptoms to prompt them to be tested because the window period following seroconversion can mean no symptoms for many years in some cases."

for 25 years? Geez this group of MSMs and their wives must have some kind of genetic immunity to have not been admitted to hospital and been tested some 10, 15 or 20 years after they've been infected.

Unless of course you think that MSMs have only been around the last couple of years when "men aren't defined by their sexuality" (but they still hide in the closet, marry women to keep up appearances, don't use condoms with their anonymous male partners, but use condoms with their wives (only that once a year when they have sex of course) and NEVER EVER get tested because of course they they aren't defined by their sexuality.)
- Replies: add


Re:
"I agree with you totally, what we need are role models, and leaders."


at last we agree on something!
- Replies: add


Overseas, the safe sex camopaigns moved on long ago from just saying "use a condom' ad infinitum, to imaginative and effective uses of the new media. The Institute for Gay Men's Health have sites set up in response to the dearth of intervention information for young gay men and those isolated in the 'burbs. Launched on Feb. 14, one site had attracted 500,000 hits and 30,000 users by mid-May. Other organizations are following suit, setting up entertaining web sites, video games, recruiting online educators, launching discussion groups or using banner ads on sex sites to promote vaccine studies, sti's, drug abuse information and safer sex. The focus is on the need to keep the target audience engaged.

These are bold new efforts to reach at-risk men who have stopped listening to other messages or have yet to receive them. The Internet may help non-gay identifying men and those outside the ghetto feel less isolated and is an obvious place to find your target audience, not a poster in a dark back room.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Some more on non-gay-identifying MSN and HIV notifications data
Many MSM are put down in ther notifications data as having caught the virus through homosexual activity, and are therefore interpreted, by certain readers of that data, as "gay identifying". Only this morning a straight identifying man who practices homosexual anal and has HIV, explained to me how, in notifications data, he and others like him will be seen as "gay" on the grounds of transmission factors, when he's actually married and not gay identifying at all.

So there's one explanation as to why there would appear to be more "gay" people than "straight" on notification data, because they only interpret as straight, statistically, if the transmission method was heterosexual activity.

But in any case, the notifications data does not give any such description, so clearly campaigners need to get their heads out of Queersville for a minute occasionally. In fact they should have a few more non-gay campaign creators - and a few more with some basic common sense instead of facile scene queens who just learn stats parrot fashion and translate everything in terms of gayspeak.

So, to summarise for those who need it spelt out: "gay" is just a tag we pin on ourselves, it is NOT, I repeat NOT, the way the majority of MSM identify. HIV notifications data doesn't recognise "gay" and many MSM are not "gay" any more than all MSM identify themselves as gay. Therefore campaigns need aiming at this group, who will never relate to pictures of twinks in designer singlets or camp same sex couples.
ord guy - Replies: add


ACON survey
Hi people,

Here is the perfect chance to make your "internet chatter" actually help make some change.

ACON is doing a web survey which is linked here:

http://www.surveys.roymorgan.com/surveys/913994/R03994AS6.asp?PanelID=14

If you are too cynical to think ACON might listen to the result, please try and suspend your cynicism for just a while and fill it out. you never know, they might take your suggestions on board.
A. Dude - Replies: add


Re:
"that's your opinion - but the reality is quite different for the majority of men (both gay and MSM) who've managed to keep practising safe sex for over 20 years."

The past 20 years is not one static sexual era, things have changed significantly in very recent years and MSM are no longer so "paranoid" of catching something that's not likely to kill them. We've already established that.

The illogical part of the [sector's] response to these recent changes is the same-old same-old approach to not only campaigning per se but to actual sexual research: because the majority of HIV infections (in Australia) have been in gay men, so the research continues to study sexual practices of mainly gay men. This is DESPITE the percentages of heterosexual PLWHAs having shot up dramatically until plateauing in the last couple of years. In other words, the only (typically illogical) reason existing data relates mainly to gay men is that that's the group mainly studied.

My own theory this is happening is that it's mainly gay men initiating and conducting the studies and they're only interested in studying their own kind: self-interested, self-obsessed, that's the gay subculture through and through: blind to and rejecting of the world outside of itself.

Sampling choices affect results, as is the case in the recent two differing public opinion polls we've seen compete in the mainstream media concerning views on same-sex relationship recognition. The Newspoll survey, which used proper cross-sectional samples, found that a majority of Australians supported the notion of legally recognised same-sex relationships. Whereas others, like todays NineMSM online/Today Show viewers' poll, showed a majority opposed legal recognition of same sex relationships. The latter clearly had a self-appointing response sample of conservative opinionists.

Now superimpose that onto the sexual studies scenario, in which mainly gay identifying MSM choose mainly gay identifying MSM in sexual behaviour study samples, and bingo! The results show that they have mainly homosexual activity - well duh!

My theory aside, I don't think there's any ground to deny a need for similar sexual behavioural studies of mainstream Australia as are overdone on gay Australia.
Only when that has been done can anyone argue about data re the sexual practices of non-gay identifying MSM.

Until such a time, we must rely on common sense and life experience. Now I'm sure I'm not the only poof in town who knows from first hand experience and global travel that in every nook and cranny of this globe there's action to be found, but only a teensy few call themselves "gay".
ord guy - Replies: add


"This is DESPITE the percentages of heterosexual PLWHAs having shot up dramatically until plateauing in the last couple of years."

Where's the evidence for the percentages of heterosexual PLWHA having shot up dramatically?
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Where's the evidence for the percentages of heterosexual PLWHA having shot up dramatically?"

"The most recent annual report from the National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research registered a big jump in diagnoses attributed to heterosexual sex...Although the NSW figure is stable, heterosexual diagnoses nationally went from 7 per cent in 1996 to 23 per cent in 2004.'

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/more-men-have-hiv--but-its-not-panic-stations-yet/2006/06/02/1148956546566.html
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


While we're on the subject of evidence...
...where's the evidence that all HIV seroconversions are of people living in "gay Sydney"? (Not at the National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research, which only keeps the state of residence notifications, no postcodes).
ord guy - Replies: 1, add
Re:
In NSW, notifications are recorded against Area Health Services of residence. No-one has claimed that all seroconversions occur in "gay Sydney" and if you care to scroll up the Board a bit you'll see reference to the wider picture.
- Replies: 1, 2, add
Re:
If you read on you'll notice that much of that increase is attributed to people arriving from high prevalence countries
or people having sex with people from high prevalence countries. To put it in context, there's no evidence of a dramatic, home-grown, heterosexual breakout, there's no heterosexual increase in NSW and in 2004 nearly 80% of all notifications were in gay men.
- Replies: add
I'm gonna dumb this right down.

Statistically, it is highly probable that a very large number of undiagnosed, untested seroconverted non-scene MSM's exist.

The experience overseas, where those charged to monitor such matters have actually bothered, has found this to be the case.

To put it in context, if you don't investigate, there's no evidence.

I has this conversation today in gay.com pvt chat. No, I haven't made it up. This guy is typical of the requests I get to BB. I am a poz man. He began by asking me to BB...

can you fuck me and than pull off when you cum

me: tell ya what, why don't u find out about safe sex b4 u become HIV+

is it safe for me if you pull out before you cum

me: u should know all this stuff, how old r u

40 bisexual

me: no it is not safe sex

i love huge balls

me: i am not gonna fuck u, u really need to find out about this shit if u r gonna bb

yes i want it

me: u want HIV?

no i want be fuck than pull out ok

anyone that precums in ur arse might infect u. have u ever had an sti test?

no I am young father 3 month old

me: when was the last test u had?

u come heeps?

me: do u understand if someone precums in ur arse they might infect u ?

ok so you want it or not

me: what ethnicity r u?

thai

me: well sorry, i am not going to infect u, good luck, and if u don't want HIV, don't bareback

u racist fuck you
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"and if you care to scroll up the Board a bit you'll see reference to the wider picture."

If you care to scroll up the board yourself you'll too see reference to there being only notications of state. Now, I can even provide a link to my source, and have done whereas you can't even name a source, let alone quote stats. So unless you can actually quote source, satas and dates, I believe it can reasonably be assumed assumed you're making this up.
- Replies: add


No-one has claimed that all seroconversions occur in "gay Sydney"
So what's this?

The overwhelming numbers are coming from inner city locations (at least in Sydney) which is known in research circles as "gay sydney". - Thu 1 Jun 2006 11:36:29

And this:

"most of the host bodies live and have sex in gay sydney. thus most of the concentration of virus and the way it spreads happens in gay sydney. you can't escape that fact. you have to accept the fact that it's gay sydney that has the most amount of sex, and the most amount of virus - thus the highest level of risk.
" - Thu 1 Jun 2006 12:54:32

And:

"There are thousands of poz gay men in Sydney including many who are undiagnosed and often highly infectious. There are not thousands of poz gay men in Casula. The statistical odds are against your suggestion." - Thu 1 Jun 2006 23:25:47

Then there's:

"personally, i don't know why you are so resistant over the idea that it's gay sydney that has the major problem with seroconversions.- Fri 2 Jun 2006 06:29:02

" The majority of people living with HIV in NSW are located in inner Sydney - which is also where the substantial proportion of gay men congregate. That's where the major risk of new infections is located and the place of residence of those diagnosed tends to bear that out. - Fri 2 Jun 2006 11:39:49

"You can't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars without evidence. the evidence is that the infections are happening to gay men living in gay sydney. Gay men having sex in gay sydney is the high risk that is attempting to be minimized by campaigns - Fri 2 Jun 2006 14:05:36

The data show that most people acquiring HIV are gay and homosexually active men aged between 30 and 49, residing in the inner east and inner west of Sydney. There are much lower numbers reported from elsewhere in metropolitan Sydney." regular poster - Sat 3 Jun 2006 17:35:31

"the numbers aren't overwhelming in outer areas. they are concentrated in inner sydney. there is no escaping that the disease is CONCENTRATED in inner sydney."- Sat 3 Jun 2006 19:09:00

"People have always moved to the inner city in order to be gay but they don't tend to bring HIV with them. It's more often something that tends to happen after they arrive." regular poster - Sun 4 Jun 2006 21:53:48

"the majority (85%+) is gay men living in inner city.
- Tue 6 Jun 2006 06:20:09"

"What the data tell us is that the vast majority of annual HIV notifications in NSW occur in gay and homosexually active men aged in their 30's and 40's, most of whom report residence in the inner east and west of Sydney." Tue 6 Jun 2006 21:46:24
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"In NSW, notifications are recorded against Area Health Services of residence"

No they aren't, only the state is recorded.
- Replies: add


I asked nicely a couple of days ago, but the debate is getting heated again. The debate about whether people living outside "gay sydney" are likely or not to transmit HIV is now closed.

It appears from the foregoing discussion that there is no decisive evidence showing whether or not this is occuring. Therefore any statement on this matter is an opinion only.

Please agree to disagree.

Also, remember to use a signature.
Panther Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


Silence=Meth
An interesting new campaign from in the US: http://www.247gay.com/article.cfm?id=9607§ion=66
Panther Confirmed - Replies: add
Re:
I can't help but notice that when somone doesn't get zhis own way, there is always an "ism" card to be played. You acked about Ethnicity to get a feel for the guy's headspace, but still refused the possibility of infection, but suddenly he cries racist. I've seen this behavior so often. You had already made it very clear prior to asking the question that you weren't going to BB in any way shape or form, so his Ethnicity was merely a tool for understanding not filtering.

It reminds me of the most obnoxious person I've ever met who believed he had a right to behave however he wished, and when people couldn't stand it anymore, he would accuse people of discrimination because of his wheel-chair. I fixed him: "The wheel-chair is welcome to stay. YOU are not!"

Pixguy, you've been so open and honest about this subject from the start that it makes you anonymously attractive. There a very strong temptation to initiate "safe" sex with you just as an exercise in personally dealing with HIV-phobia. I think geography reduces that to a passing comment.
The Professor Confirmed - Eyes wide, middle of the night, got more money than a bodyguard might... - Replies: 1, add


Oh well, I guess this wall isn't gonna be about HIV anymore. I may as well get this in instead.

On Tuesday the Federal Government announced that it will override the ACT Civil Union Act because they are hateful homophobic Christian fundamentalists and, well, just because they can. It may be possible to stop the Howard Government overriding the ACT law if enough of us act now. Herte's some points to consider, courtesy of R. Croome.

Same-sex couples deserve the opportunity to solemnise their unions, have their love and commitment affirmed, and provide legal security to their families
The people of Canberra have the right to make their own laws and govern their own affairs
There is no legal conflict between the national Marriage Act and the ACT Civil Union Act
The Tasmanian relationships registry has the same legal effect as the ACT Civil Union Act. If the former is legally and constitutionally valid so is
the latter.
There is no room in Australian law for prejudice and discrimination against people because of the gender of their partner
A recent Newspoll showed that the majority of Australians support laws like those in ACT which allow same-sex couples to formalise their relationships.

Here's a petition to copy/paste...

Dear.,

I am disappointed and angered by the Federal Government's decision to
override the ACT's new civil union law.

I support laws which solemnise, affirm and give legal security to same-sex
relationships. I believe the ACT law achieves this aim without coming into
conflict with the Commonwealth Marriage Act.

I urge the Liberal Party to allow this issue to be debated in Parliament,
and to allow a conscience vote during this debate.

I urge you to champion this conscience vote, and to support the ACT law when
a vote is taken.

Yours,
and here's a list of Senators to email:

Judith Adams, (Senator.Adams@aph.gov.au)
Cory Bernadi (Senator.Bernardi@aph.gov.au)
George Brandis (Senator.Brandis@aph.gov.au)
Richard Colbeck (Senator.Colbeck@aph.gov.au)
Alan Eggleston (Senator.Eggleston@aph.gov.au)
Chris Ellison (Senator.Ellison@aph.gov.au)
Alan Ferguson (Senator.Ferguson@aph.gov.au)
Mitch Fifield (Senator.Fifield@aph.gov.au)
Gary Humphries (Senator.Humphries@aph.gov.au)
Rod Kemp (Senator.Rod.Kemp@aph.gov.au)
Brett Mason (Senator.Mason@aph.gov.au)
Stephen Parry (Senator.Parry@aph.gov.au)
Kay Patterson (Senator.Patterson@aph.gov.au)
Marise Payne (Senator.Payne@aph.gov.au)
Nigel Scullion (Senator.Scullion@aph.gov.au)
Judith Troeth (Senator.Troeth@aph.gov.au)
Amanda Vanstone (Senator.Vanstone@aph.gov.au)

peace
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Oh well, I guess this wall isn't gonna be about HIV anymore. I may as well get this in instead.

On Tuesday the Federal Government announced that it will override the ACT Civil Union Act because they are hateful homophobic Christian fundamentalists and, well, just because they can. It may be possible to stop the Howard Government overriding the ACT law if enough of us act now. Herte's some points to consider, courtesy of R. Croome.

Same-sex couples deserve the opportunity to solemnise their unions, have their love and commitment affirmed, and provide legal security to their families
The people of Canberra have the right to make their own laws and govern their own affairs
There is no legal conflict between the national Marriage Act and the ACT Civil Union Act
The Tasmanian relationships registry has the same legal effect as the ACT Civil Union Act. If the former is legally and constitutionally valid so is
the latter.
There is no room in Australian law for prejudice and discrimination against people because of the gender of their partner
A recent Newspoll showed that the majority of Australians support laws like those in ACT which allow same-sex couples to formalise their relationships.

Here's a petition to copy/paste...

Dear.,

I am disappointed and angered by the Federal Government's decision to
override the ACT's new civil union law.

I support laws which solemnise, affirm and give legal security to same-sex
relationships. I believe the ACT law achieves this aim without coming into
conflict with the Commonwealth Marriage Act.

I urge the Liberal Party to allow this issue to be debated in Parliament,
and to allow a conscience vote during this debate.

I urge you to champion this conscience vote, and to support the ACT law when
a vote is taken.

Yours,
and here's a list of Senators to email:

Judith Adams, (Senator.Adams@aph.gov.au)
Cory Bernadi (Senator.Bernardi@aph.gov.au)
George Brandis (Senator.Brandis@aph.gov.au)
Richard Colbeck (Senator.Colbeck@aph.gov.au)
Alan Eggleston (Senator.Eggleston@aph.gov.au)
Chris Ellison (Senator.Ellison@aph.gov.au)
Alan Ferguson (Senator.Ferguson@aph.gov.au)
Mitch Fifield (Senator.Fifield@aph.gov.au)
Gary Humphries (Senator.Humphries@aph.gov.au)
Rod Kemp (Senator.Rod.Kemp@aph.gov.au)
Brett Mason (Senator.Mason@aph.gov.au)
Stephen Parry (Senator.Parry@aph.gov.au)
Kay Patterson (Senator.Patterson@aph.gov.au)
Marise Payne (Senator.Payne@aph.gov.au)
Nigel Scullion (Senator.Scullion@aph.gov.au)
Judith Troeth (Senator.Troeth@aph.gov.au)
Amanda Vanstone (Senator.Vanstone@aph.gov.au)

peace
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Notifications all look gay but that's only "mode of transmission" not self-appointed sexual identity
The HIV epidemic in Australia - Feb, 2006

A cumulative profile to 30 June, 2005

HIV Infection ................ 24,743*
AIDS ................ 9,594
Deaths ................ 6,546


* Estimated number of new diagnoses of HIV infection, adjusted for multiple reports, was 21,820

*** Source: Australian HIV Surveillance Report, October 2005.National Centre in HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research, NSW.

Diagnoses in the year to 30 june 2005

919 diagnoses of HIV infection
146 diagnoses of AIDS
69 deaths following AIDS were reported by 30 September 2005


HIV diagnoses

People diagnosed with HIV infection in the year to 30 June 2005 had an average age of 37 years and 1.4% was in the age group 13 - 19 years.

* 89.4% were male and 10.6% were female

* Of 822 cases of HIV infection, newly diagnosed among men in the year to 30 June 2005 for which an exposure to HIV was reported, 629 (76.5%) were attributed to male homosexual/bisexual contact, with or without a history of injecting drug use.
---------------------------------------------

extract from: http://www.aids.net.au/aids-aust.htm

As you can see, the only indication in any stats of a person's sexuality is the type of exposure (ie homosexual/bisexual contact, with or without a history of injecting drug use). This is not the same as saying they were out gay men and means that those same men could be straight-identifying MSM and would not have responded to campaigns targeted at gay men.

Nevertheless, in today's SSO P2, is the news of plans to target "older gay men and 'party boys' - who tend to have more risky sex - in a bid to lower HIV rates.

Then we wonder why someone's not getting the message.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
'The debate about whether people living outside "gay sydney" are likely or not to transmit HIV is now closed'

RugUp is trying to encourage open discussion on the subject this wall is intended for, but is not taking off, with only 600 or so of the 10,000 hoped for. Why could this be, with all the community encouragement to talk. Like here for example. Mention of the state's key org is proscribed and discussion as to why campaign failures are keeping infection rates ongoing is banned. Pretty pointless having a wall to discuss HIV then.
zipped lips - Replies: 1, add


Crystal?
The main point the needs making about it is that it DOES cause people to act unsafely - according to plenty of anecdotal evidence - and that **** (that place we aren't allowed to mention) has a harm minimisation advocation policy (as opposed to an abstinence promotion one) which I and most other successfully recovering addicts believe encourages people to avoid trying to kick the habit. This controversial policy is highly questionable and the reasons for not changing it are more to do with funding-hunger and yuppy politics than health promotion.

If I had not been wasted I'd still be HIV negative. Harm minimisation policies suck.
clean 4 10 yrs - Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Re:
"RugUp is trying to encourage open discussion on the subject this wall is intended for, but is not taking off, with only 600 or so of the 10,000 hoped for. Why could this be, with all the community encouragement to talk. Like here for example. Mention of the state's key org is proscribed and discussion as to why campaign failures are keeping infection rates ongoing is banned. Pretty pointless having a wall to discuss HIV then."

You are so right, Zipped Lips, but let's talk about today's SSO reports, there's plenty about HIV in there. The usual claims from the usual suspects about recent notifications being "mainly gay men" AGAIN, but of course we all know that there's no sexual orientation indicators on the notifications, after reading the ones that have links posted on this very wall.. The only data is that the majority were from homosexual activity - not "gay" identifying men at all. Which brings us to the reason this probably keeps happening. MSM are not targeted in any campaigns, only "gay" ones.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
ohhh snaps for obscure blondie reference prof! :)
- Replies: add
Re:
I think at some point people need to take responsbility for their actions.

How can you say that "drugs are to blame for your behaviour" yet you chose to take drugs.

People aren't mindless automons. they know about that drugs make you do things you don't normally do (what's the point in taking them if they didn't?).

Harm minimization is a way for organisations to strategize about how to deal with risks. it's not something that people do. "oh i'll just do some harm minimization" - why not just NOT do the risky thing?
someone who has taken risks in the past - Replies: 1, add


Re:
That place does recognise that, for some people, stopping drug use is the only solution to the problem.

The problem with the harm minimisation versus abstinence debate is that lots of people do use drugs without descending into the abyss and if you pitch your messages at "abstinence only," lots of people turn off. Steering a middle course has nothing to do with funding hunger or yuppie politics. It's to do with practical, lived reality.

I don't think there's any argument around the fact that drugs are a powerful disinhibitor and do contribute to unsafe behaviour but I doubt very much that they're the only factor at play.
regular poster - Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Methamphetamine is a highly psychologically addictive drug. The mental and social consequences of quitting can be severe and extremely difficult for the addict. As with all addictions, relapse is common. Addiction is defined as an uncontrollable urge to have more. Willpower will not work. It is not a moral issue. It is something over which the addict has no control. The only answer is abstinence as, obviously, even a little use, will set off the cycle of addiction again. This is not higher calculus. Its academic knowledge that's been accepted for years. The paradox is that addicts don't choose to use, or want to, they have to. "Harm minimalisation" only encourages addiction. It's fucking stoooopid. There are many programmes to assist in acheiving and maintaining abstinence.

I suspect what the poster referred to as "funding hunger or yuppie politics" is the fact that drug use has such a kudos in our culture, speaking against drugs is way uncool. And the rave parties at which drugs seem almost compulsory are major fund raisers for some NGO's so I guess they have to be seen to be balancing their act some how. The 'drug dens' are their cash cows, so there's an obvious conflict of interest. All of which is highly contencious of course.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
'The problem with the harm minimisation versus abstinence debate is that lots of people do use drugs without descending into the abyss and if you pitch your messages at "abstinence only," lots of people turn off.'

With drugs generally I'd agree with you on this, but crystal is VERY difeerent. It stands alone in its addictiveness, and this is going unacknowledged.

'Steering a middle course has nothing to do with funding hunger or yuppie politics. It's to do with practical, lived reality.'

Harm minimisation with this particular drug is not "middle course", it's radically "left".

'It's to do with practical, lived reality.'

I disagree. Endorsing use of crystal meth by adoption of harm minimisation policies is not conducive to health promotion.
clean 4 10 years - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"why not just NOT do the risky thing?"

Why not practice what this preaches by adopting abstinence only policies towards crystal? It's unlike other drugs.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"I don't think there's any argument around the fact that drugs are a powerful disinhibitor and do contribute to unsafe behaviour but I doubt very much that they're the only factor at play."

No one said drugs were the only factor at play in ongoing HIV transmission in NSW. The point made was only about crystal meth and gay male consumption of crytsal meth is unarguably a serious and significant social factor re current sexual risk taking.

It makes sense therefore that anyone whose vision includes aiming to stop HIV transmissions would actively oppose use of this substance. Harm minimisation advocacy is not conductive to actively opposing crystal meth abuse in the context of HIV prevention.
in my opinion - Replies: add


Re:
Agree with this. In my opinion, I think that preaching 'abstinence only' will not only turn people off, but there will be more unsafe injecting practices which can lead to more cases of HIV and hepatitis C.
- Replies: 1, add
Re:
You make a valid point. Alcohol is my absolute limit these days, and I've never touched "street drugs". If a recreational drug is capable of rendering someone so stupid that walking under a bus isn't even noticed, then maybe that's a valid campaign strategy, regardless of the safe sex issue.

I still firmly advocate the Amsterdam model for drugs of addiction. You enter the building, you are supplied free with the compound to which you are addicted (medical grade not street grade), and you are supervised like local shooting galleries. You must take the dosage on the premises, and you are not allowed to carry any out with you. Dealing in the streets is far more heavily policed than here in Australia, and with free supplies and supervision, there really is no market for the dealers. If a few well-spent tax dollars means my VCR (and all the other damage done acquiring it) is safe, then insurance premiums start coming down.

Because these people are attending a proper medical facility, they have access to counselling, dosage reduction to limit the effects of withdrawal. Cleaning up the party drugs could well contribute to cleaning up the distribution of HIV as well.
The Professor Confirmed - In a double-process luminescent day-glow shade... - Replies: add


Re:
Whilst I agree that Crystal is a problem, there is still the bigger problem of blame shifting. If people choose to participate in unsafe sex, they try to justify it by blaming every possible thing except themselves.

As a crystal user, I've never participated in unsafe sex and have never felt the desire to do it. I'm firmly convinced that those who do, do so then absolve themselves of any blame by pointing the finger at whichever recreational drug they were using at the time. These days it's crystal, previously it's been e, coke, etc.

Bottom line (no pun intended)is it all comes down to personal responsibility and society as a whole lately is more likely to blame someone or something other than themselves for their actions.

HIV infections are on the rise because more guys are choosing to play unsafe. Blaming crystal is just a conveniient way of absolving themselves of any responsibility.
- Replies: 1, add


Re: Crystal?
Hellooooooo.......come on you guys, of course you know what you are doing when you are taking drugs. People blaming the drugs is a lot of shit......I know exactly everything I do when taking drugs at parties etc.

And yes I do bareback all the time, have ever since coming out - some thirty years ago......but hey I am still negative - go figure
- Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Re:
"Blaming crystal is just a conveniient way of absolving themselves of any responsibility."

I don't think crystal users have the credibilty to speak out on the ethics of self-responsibility when they are playing Russian roulette. If you're trying to defend crystal use and advocacy of it you haven't a leg to stand on. It's dangerous, unhealthy, illegal, anti-social, irresponsible and causing problems in gay captitals worldwide.

If people felt discouragement instead of approval by health bodies which embrace harm minimisation, they'd feel less inclined to follow the peer pressure leading them to experiment with it.

I do hope you get your life back on track eventually
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Agree with this. In my opinion, I think that preaching 'abstinence only' will not only turn people off, but there will be more unsafe injecting practices which can lead to more cases of HIV and hepatitis C."

These are two opposite extremes you're comparing. Adopting a harm minimisation approach sends a message of sanction, whereas "preaching abstinence" may well turn people off. The middle ground would be to use common sense and both avoid harm minimisation approaches while refraining from preaching but actively and non-judgementally educating the community. This carries ethical gravitas AND a safety warning.
in my opinion - Replies: 1, add


Here's a little lay education on addiction/crystal meth to chew over
Addiction is not a choice it's an illness and a formally recognised disease that the world's leading health bodies list. Some people are genetically predisposed to addiction to some things, but even those who are not can become addicted by regular consumption of some substances - just look at cigarettes, for example.

The more you consume addictive substances the closer you will be to becoming addicted. This is known in recovery speak as "feeding the disease". Some substances are more chemically addictive than others, and all have their own psychological addiction grades - crystal methamphetamine is right at the top of this grade list, and is considered by some leading hospital specialists to be more virulently addictive than heroin.

As reguar users of crystal meth turn into more frequent users a significant number of those become heavy users. Heavy users "feed their disease" anxiously as they develop personal tolerance to their drug of choice and reqire higher, more dangerous doses to achieve their required effect. This process escalates until the user can no longer get the required effect at all, by which stage they are only using the substance to prevent withdrawal - which is required by the body to physiologically rebalance itself.

Not only secondary physical and mental illnesses result at this stage but also social networks begin to crumble (including spousal relationships) and jobs are put on the line.

This is known in recovery circles as "heading for rock bottom". The actual rock bottom is usually the only thing that brings an addict to the realisation that they have no control left and need help. But the diseased part of the personality will always try to intrude on rational thought and the addict lives for their next fix, illogically, irrationally, unhealthily and often homelessly and reduced to crime to sustain access to supply, in a constant limbo between self-loathing and denial that is described by many as a living hell.

Now, it has taken many many decades for anything to be done re alcohol and cigarettes - there were government and commercial economic incentives to fight first. For drugs we do at least have Narcotics Anonymous and now there's even Crystal Meth Anonymous in response to that particular current global addiction epidemic. But that's all there is and it won't be there to "catch" addicts when they fall, if those addicts are not ready and determined to seek out help of their own accord. Even then it's a lifelong task recovering and there's no such thing as an ex-addict or an ex-alcholic, these are as lifelong lasting diseases as HIV, and just like HIV they require ongoing daily address and treatment.

I have learnt all this the hard way because no one could tell me anything in my heady days of addiction - my drug of choice was not crystal but that's neither here nor there, addiction is addiction and the recovery process is hard and long for every one of us -and while I "blame" no one, but take sole responsibility for my own part in making myself ill and letting my life fall apart due to addiction, I can honestly say that it would have made a significant difference if I hadn't felt I was getting the OK "nod" from an underinformed health education sector that moved with foolishy experimental trends such as "controlled drinking" programmes and "harm minimisation" strategies.

It's a sad state of affairs when we, as a community, take lead from "leaders" who advocate use of such highly dangerous substances of crystal methamphetamine, and those "leaders" continue to resist strategic change due to the politics of the moment and public image insecurity instead of common sense and caring for their constituents.
anonymous - Replies: 1, add


"And the rave parties at which drugs seem almost compulsory are major fund raisers for some NGO's so I guess they have to be seen to be balancing their act some how."

I don't know of any health NGO that regards dance parties as "a major source of fundraising." Event-based fundraising is one of the least efficient ways to raise revenue as the production overheads tend to outweigh the benefits - look at Mardi Gras over the last few years.
regular poster - Replies: add


Right on, anonymous, very well put. If Mr. "People blaming the drugs is a lot of shit" thinks that harm minimization works, he should go to a meeting of a CMA (www.crystalmeth.org) and listen to the tales of the hundreds of ruined lives of those that thought they could use safely and socially. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. If you are dispensing information on a subject that may cost someone's life, you should know what you are talking about.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
"addiction" vs choice
"Addiction is not a choice it's an illness"


But isn't that like saying "Lung cancer caused by smoking is an illness"?

That does take away the fact that the person CHOSE to take the drug of choice in the first place.

YOu can't get addicted without first taking the drug (of your own free will).
- Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
'But isn't that like saying "Lung cancer caused by smoking is an illness"? That does take away the fact that the person CHOSE to take the drug of choice in the first place. YOu can't get addicted without first taking the drug (of your own free will).'


But no one is advocating smoking by advertising harm minimisation of cigarett smoking. And yes, lung cancer is an illness. There are many illnesses that involve behavioural components, from obesity to diabetes.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"Hellooooooo.......come on you guys, of course you know what you are doing when you are taking drugs. People blaming the drugs is a lot of shit......I know exactly everything I do when taking drugs at parties etc."

You can't speak for everyone esle by saying "of course you know what you are doing when you are taking drugs" you can only speak for yourself - and give it a bit more time and you won't have clue what you're doing, addiction is a sly progressive illness that creeps up over time (though quite rapidly in some sufferers), not an overnight infection with immediate and obvious warning symptoms.
anonymous - sorry I forgot to sign the last one - Replies: add


Re:
"YOu can't get addicted without first taking the drug (of your own free will)."

Therefore your chances are better if you abstain.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
this Long weekend, A&E at St. Vinnies will be full of hundreds of guys who knew what they were doing when they were taking drugs. Matthew Talbot Hostel is full of guys guys who knew what they were doing when they were taking drugs. Those dudes you step over in the streets of KX knew what they were doing when they were taking drugs.

Good luck dude.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
I wasn't trying to defned crystal use in any way, shape or form.

I am simply saying personal responsibility has to play a part somewhere along the line.

Drugs can be blamed for a multitude of things (and I'm talking both legal and illegal drugs here), but ultimately if the person didn't want to participate in unsafe sex practices, they wouldn't.

I never have done anything unsafe and I never will. That is my choice and if for some reason I decide to change that stance, I have to accept the fallout.
- Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Re:
"YOu can't get addicted without first taking the drug (of your own free will)."
Therefore your chances are better if you abstain.

F-oath. your chances are supremely better if you abstain. too much drugs in our community. and too many people saying "drugs aren't bad, after all you drink coffee don't you? and that's a drug" as if that condones or makes it reasonable to take e's, or crystal, or speed or whathever your choice of "recreational" drug is.
- Replies: add


Re:
"That is my choice and if for some reason I decide to change that stance, I have to accept the fallout."

It'd be a bit late for hundreds of thousands to say that when they became a burden to the state and a danger to themselves and the community because they're psychotic, violent, paranoid, aggressive and willing to steal off their own mothers to support a habit.

Did you also know that only a tiny percentage ever even TRY to get well again, and an even tinier percentage of THOSE succeed.
ord ugy - Replies: add


I think campaign wise this would be a better direction to be thinking in:
In the US EVERYONE in the population is campaigned to at least once a year. If Australai adopted this approach into its strategic planning that would at least partly help target those MSM not being reached in gay ghetto campaigns. Following is a short extract from a news article @ newszap.com:
http://www.newszap.com/articles/2006/06/07/fl/immokalee/ib02.txt

"HIV tests can save your life

June 27 marks the 12th annual observance of National HIV Testing Day (NHTD), which reminds all Americans that HIV testing is an important step in the prevention and treatment of HIV/AIDS.

An estimated 40,000 Americans are newly infected with HIV each year, and at least one-fourth of Americans who are HIV positive do not know it. New Center for Disease Control (CDC) data indicates that in 2003, between 1,039,000 and 1,185,000 people were living with HIV."
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"I never have done anything unsafe and I never will."

You don't have one of those crystal balls do you? Actually that was once my catchcry and that of a vast global recovery network, now we're HIV+ and rebuilding our lives - some of us are even succeeding.
anonymous - Replies: add


Re:
"I am simply saying personal responsibility has to play a part somewhere along the line."

The taking personal responsibility message is less conveyed in harm minimisation education than it is in abstinence foucussed education.

Take barebacking. You don't see campaigns that say "If you bareback, you take responsibility for the fallout", instead the message is to never bareback.
- Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
"Hellooooooo.......come on you guys, of course you know what you you are doing when you are taking drugs."

Crystal is a disinhibitor, which means it raises a person's likelihood of risk taking. Now YOU may not give a **** whether you bareback or not, but most people do have that basic cence of responsibility for the safety of themselves and others when engaging in sex.

Intoxicating substances are prohibited from use by drivers of motor vehicles and operators of machinery for this reason, as well as turning up for work (imagine a child care worker in K hole).

It's only common sense for public health messages to comply with these basic principles. You don't see health promotion campaigns that advise drivers to use their illicit substances with a minimum of harm, or childcare workers, so why should public health bodies dealing with infection prevention break such consistencies?
- Replies: add


Re:
You don't see campaigns that say "If you bareback, you take responsibility for the fallout", instead the message is to never bareback.


Perhaps the "if you bareback, you take responsibility fo rthe fallout" might be a better way to go. At least then there is an acknowledgement that there is consequence to your actions. It'll put the fear in people again, and unfortunately that's all that seems to work.
- Replies: 1, add


It is obvious that queers will be encouraged to use illicit drugs if they are told they can use them safely or responsibly. HM cannot be justified because of the assertion that drug use is normal behaviour and to try and prevent it futile. Right now, 1000's of gays, eager to experience that sense of 'belonging' are negotiating and discussing their recreational drug regime for this weekend's round of parties. All these parties give their cut to the orgs that promote HM. The fact is that crystal, through tolerance and dependence, makes the user lose control.
This is a terrible problem which is just being made worse. I see the adverse effects on gay men of crystal abuse around here every day. And yet, users are urged to continue use in a supposed responsible manner while non users are being enticed to experiment in the belief they can do so safely. We need to deter use and reduce the number of users, not maintain them.
Just what mosel of 'community' are the orgs trying to build?
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
I don't see any campaigns demanding that poz guys cease barebacking with each other. Barebacking itself isn't the problem, it's the "safety" assumptions that guys make around presumed neg/neg in unprotected casual encounters, as well as people who just don't care.

Likewise, drivers are rightly penalised for drinking and driving but the law doesn't require that they refrain from drinking entirely. Only to the point at which legislators have decided that ability is impaired.

That's harm reduction.
regular poster - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
As you said, you need to hit rock bottom before you do something to control an addiction. (I have just finished reading Matthew Flinders' Cat by Bryce Courtenay which is all about addiction and overcoming it.) People do not give up their addictions easily.

So what do you do with those who are addicted? You can't tell them to stop because they won't listen. You can't prevent them using because they will get it somewhere else.

This is where harm minimisation comes in. To try to prevent people harming themselves with HIV and HepC while they harm themselves with crystal.

If, as you are saying, harm minimisation strategies attract people to drug use then this is needs to be addressed.
Arti Confirmed - Replies: add


Harm Minimisation or Abstinence
In the US they are trying to push abstinence instead of harm minimisation. "Great!" I hear you saying, that is until I remind you that this is abstinence from sex.

People will have sex. People will take drugs (legal and otherwise). You may be able to make some listen with messages of abstinence, but you will never reach them all.

What is telling people about condoms and safe sex? Harm minimisation.

How is harm minimisation about sexual practices different from harm minimisation about other practices?
Arti Confirmed - Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Re:
"I don't see any campaigns demanding that poz guys cease barebacking with each other. Barebacking itself isn't the problem"

If you don't see any campaigns demanding that poz guys cease barebacking with each other, would you like me to direct you to all the rhetoric in recent months about the spread of STIs and poz guys being responsible for barebacking with each other?

I don't see any campaigns saying "always use a condom (except if you're poz)".
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
Likewise, drivers are rightly penalised for drinking and driving but the law doesn't require that they refrain from drinking entirely. Only to the point at which legislators have decided that ability is impaired.

That's harm reduction.

-----------------------------

Um, yes and the penalties are severe for over the limit driving, which sends a clear dosage message out. What dosage message have you seen lately for crystal methamphetamine consumpion?

Driving and alcohol laws are about a legal and regulated substance, which we know the ingredients and manufacture must pass rigourous guidelines. Do you know what goes into a batch of crystal?
ord guy - Replies: add


Prohibition doesn't work.
We all know what happened in the u$ when they tried alcohol prohibition: Moonshine running.

The very fact that the drug is illegal is part of the attraction. Hence we need education. Remember those ads about young people and alcohol? I remember the one where a guy says of his now ex-girlfriend, "She threw up in my motor bike helmet."

It does seem that the fear factor becomes necessary to some degree, because honest education fails to stand up to peer-pressure.

I just wish EVERY teenager at school was required to do a "parenting" course, where they have to look after those dolls that cry all night, puke on you the moment you pick them up, shit or wet themselves immediately after changing etc..

People as ill as Pixguy should be touring, demonstrating to youngsters that HIV is no picnic,

Maybe we DO need to go as far as making an ad of a crystal addict walking under a bus...
The Professor Confirmed - La Croix, baby spew. La Croix, baby spew. - Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Re:
To be accurate, those pushing sexual abstinence in the US are of the fundamentalist Christian right. Their agenda is to use the epidemic to further their puritan calls for no sex outside marriage. The Bush administratioin tends to favour funding to organisations with the same agenda. There are lobbyists in Australia too, that would petition the government to focus funding on groups with the same religious agenda.
Sexual abstinence campaigns, as you say, are futile; you won't stop guys bonking. Noone has argued the right of HM campaigns for safe sex. The argument has been that they are not working and are missing big targets.
Harm minimisation is a futile approach to crystal/GHB use because it is not like having a couple of middies and calling it a night. It is highly addictive, as the evidence from all over the world proves, and tolerance soon develops in the user. One pipe will never be enough. The practise around here is to spend one week 'up', and then a week on the come-down.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
Theposter wassaying, Arti,thatthere's a pointed inconsistency between themessagebeibg sentoutabout sexual practices and crystal meth. Campaigns addressing unsafe sex are clear cut: "Don't"

Whereas those about crystal are: "It's a given".

It's unintelligent and just not good enough.
in my opinion - Replies: add


Re:
Thanks prof., but i'm not all THAT sick, and don't want to be 'on tour' (as a warning to others?) LOL
I guess what crystal/ghb users need to know is that they risk a progressive disease. Addiction slowly takes everything. Its like the lights going out one by one...first you'll lose your money, then your job, your friends will start dropping off, partner/family will get sick of putting up with your shit, you won't be able to pay the rent/mortgage and you'll be on the street, still looking for more drugz. Then you start losing important things like sanity, self respect, sanity, dignity, control of ur bodily functions....etc etc
Pity is, Prof., u can never tell anyone heading down that road this stuff. They always have to find out for themselves.
Now which part of this harm do we think can be minimised?
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
People will have sex. People will take drugs (legal and otherwise). You may be able to make some listen with messages of abstinence, but you will never reach them all.

What is telling people about condoms and safe sex? Harm minimisation. "People will have sex. People will take drugs (legal and otherwise). You may be able to make some What is telling people about condoms and safe sex? Harm minimisation. How is harm minimisation about sexual practices different from harm minimisation about other practices?"

There's a strong abstinence message in safe sex campaigns re unsafe sex: "Don't do it".
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Perhaps the 'if you bareback, you take responsibility for the fallout' might be a better way to go. At least then there is an acknowledgement that there is consequence to your actions. It'll put the fear in people again, and unfortunately that's all that seems to work."


I don't see any difference between your suggestion of "If you bareback, you take responsibility for the fallout" and the current and same old messages to always use condoms - it says exactly the same thing.

I still believe major improvements can and should be made re the message sent out about crystal methamphetamine abuse by GLBTQ health PR. Media releases and articles authored by biasedly pro-crystal queers are the wrong way to go, as are detailed instructions on how to prepare and consume crystal methamphetamine, which is tantamount to advertising detailed instructions on how to load a gun and shoot yourself.

There's been plenty said about there being a shortage of statistical evidence that there's any link between crystal abuse and unsafe sex, but then there's been no statistical evidence to disprove the link either, nor any research done to bear any stats, and won't be as long as it remains illicit - which it will due to the extreme danger involved in its consumption.

However, if you agree that fear is the way to go ("It'll put the fear in people again, and unfortunately that's all that seems to work") then it would seem you are at odds with yourself about sending a fear based warning re unsafe sex causing HIV but, on the other hand, only a harm minismisation one re crystal meth abuse - and let's face it, HIV is a lot more treatable than crystal addiction.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
Totally agree Professor, it's worked with smoking campaigns. And there's a difference between stigmatising smoking and illegal activities such as crystal meth abuse, and stigmatising innocent PLWHAs. I reckon fear campaigns for crystal is the way to go. And there are also ways of creating fear campaigns for HIV that would not necessarily stigmatise pozzies - it just takes a little creativity and a couple of brain cells (...need I say more :-) )
clean 4 10 - Replies: add
Re:
I don't see where I was comparing two extremes in that statement. I only said that I thought abstinence ONLY is not a good idea. I think some sort of harm minimisation information has to be an option.....not an extremist option in my opinion.

I have hepC, aquired back in the eighties. I knew that using drugs was risky...addiction etc.... but knew very little about the ease of which hepatitis could be aquired through unsafe drug practices. There were no harm minimisation strategies back then.
D - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"I don't see where I was comparing two extremes in that statement. I only said that I thought abstinence ONLY is not a good idea. I think some sort of harm minimisation information has to be an option.....not an extremist option in my opinion."

These are two opposite extremes you're comparing:

1 Adopting a harm minimisation approach sends a message of sanction - extreme in its stupidity.

2 "Preaching abstinence" may well turn people off - extreme in its counter-productiveness.

The middle ground would be to use common sense by avoiding harm minimisation approaches AND avoiding preaching abstinence, but actively and non-judgementally educating the community about the dangers of crystal meth. This carries ethical gravitas AND a safety warning.

Back in the '8os when you're talking aboout there was no crstal meth problem, today it is eating into our community and ruining lives. If the community was informed about addiction and crystal meth abuse dangers to their health (a la quit smoking campaigns) first and foremost, a far lesser number would choose to continue using and harm minimisation would be comparable only to heroin addicts getting a fix of methadone and a clean needle in a shooting gallery - there will always be those genetically predisposed hard core addicts, but let them practice their harm minimisation in clinically supervised environments attended to by medical staff.

If smoking can become stigmatised to save lives and health (not to mention the Medicare bill) so can this insidious drug.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
I also think that no matter how much "education" you deliver that there are some people who will never listen. they have self-destructive streaks in them and a "i cant happen to me" attitude.

just look at speeding - generation after generation has to deal with reckless people killing themselves and others because they don't understand that speeding kills.

Perhaps it's time we cut our loses with HIV and accept that there will always be serconversions happening in our community because we can't reach everyone and short of controlling everyone's actions people are free to be self destructive.
- Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
"There's a strong abstinence message in safe sex campaigns re unsafe sex: "Don't do it""

I disagree. They are not saying don't do something. They are saying do it in a way to minimise harm.
Arti Confirmed - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
"Perhaps it's time we cut our loses with HIV and accept that there will always be serconversions happening in our community because we can't reach everyone and short of controlling everyone's actions people are free to be self destructive."

Self-destructiveness is compounded by the effects of addiction (and mental health generally). As a UN nation we are bound by diplomacy to continue the fight against HIV. As a community we are morally obliged to care for our own. To me this means we must continue to educate people and learn from past education failures.

Crystal meth addiction and HIV preevention education are still priorities for BLBTQs.

If we're going to talk about cutting our losses then lets start by auditing the multi-billion dollar industry set up to address HIV.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
Well we will have to agree to disagree. I am saying to try to find a way to educate people about addiction and the dangers to crystal meth AND employ some harm minimisation at the same time. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.
- Replies: 1, add
Re:
"short of controlling everyone's actions people are free to be self destructive."

PS self destructive is only part of it too, crystal addiction affects the lives of others, just as passive smoking does. Families, partners and all those close to an addict suffer, then there's domestic violence, peer pressure, the list goes on.
- Replies: add


Re:
"Well we will have to agree to disagree. I am saying to try to find a way to educate people about addiction and the dangers to crystal meth AND employ some harm minimisation at the same time. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive."

I agree with you that we need both, but not in the current format. As it stands we have ONLY harm minimisation - period. Qhat we should have is (as a priority) education about crystal addiction etc, and the harm minimisation could be available to confirmed addicts or as a tiny addendum to a major education strategy.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
Arti, are you saying the safe sex message is not 'don't do it'? There must be a new campaign out that I haven't seen yet. I wonder how we minimise harm from barebacking?
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add
Re:
"They are not saying don't do something. They are saying do it in a way to minimise harm."

They are saying "Don't bareback." (How can you harm minimise barebacking?)
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


If you can't be good, be careful?
I know it's an old chestnut, but isn't that really the message that people need to learn?

Legal addiction has cost me enough: as any addict is compelled to admit, the substance comes first. 2 cartons of cigarettes every pay day (and not cheap shit either) really eats into anybody's budget; and we see harm from that every day in malnourished children because the cigarettes are more important than grocery shopping.

I personally estimate that smoking has cost me approximately $5000.00 whereas other people's use of illicit drugs has cost me at least $57,000.00 and it seems that some people can only understand things when $$$ comes into play.

Advertising that "speeding kills" hasn't helped, and those who drive, pay careful attention next time you're squeezed down into one lane on the "free"way so that traffic can get past a serious accident, and then note how many wannabes, seeing clear road in front immediately forget the mangled wreck that's still visible in the rear vision mirror, and just floor it.

Basically, people are stupid, so we have to keep the message simple. Round up a few dozen crystal-heads, and I'll gladly hire the bus.
The Professor Confirmed - ARTI: Long time, no hear. Hope you're doing well. - Replies: add


Re:
"I wonder how we minimise harm from barebacking?"


guys are already doing it by sero-sorting. sure it's not failsafe, but quite obviously this is a form of harm minimization for barebacking.

and getting people tested so they actually know that when they say "i'm neg" that they know its the truth.

problem is that too many guys don't get tested. the rug up campaign is trying to deal with that. and it's important for poz guys as well as neg guys to get tested for STIs because if a poz guy has an STI the chances of passing on HIV are much higher.

obviously there are some poz guys who are very resistant to getting tested for STIs because they think that if the horse has already bolted for them then there's no point in them trying to prevent others horses bolting.

so the question is: how do we encourage people to get tested both for HIV as well as STIs?
- Replies: 1, add


Crystal Meth help is out there in Sydney
In the absence of adequade help, support and guidance from GLBTQ NGOs, I'm putting this info onto PB myself. Anyone looking for an inroad to getting well from crystal meth addiction can attend:

• 'SMART RECOVERY' for crystal users in Sydney: Clinical Services Team, St Vincents Hospital Alcohol and Drug Service. Ph: 02-9361-8020. email: cst@stvincents.com.au

CRYSTAL METH ANONYMOUS (Sydney) meets 7pm every Tuesday at Mission Australia Building, 4-10 Campbell Street, Surry Hills. Stuart: 0410 324384

Or even just any of the hundreds of Narcotics Anonymous groups, which have no fees and are in most areas of Australia:
http://www.naoz.org.au/community/index.php

For those feeling they need a GLBTQ-specific recovery environment there is Rainbow Recover Club, Bedford Street, Corner of Buckingham Street, Surry Hills.
Email enquiries to: secretary@rainbowrecovery.com.au
or visit their website at:

http://www.rainbowrecovery.com.au/about.htm

But if the very most you can face right now is an online peep at the idea, here are some helpful web links:

"The Principles" by Patrick Moore is a Yahoo Health Expert Blogs initiative:

http://health.yahoo.com/experts/theprinciples/bio;_ylt=AvE7wQYipjmYyvKEOvFe8fxTis8F

and

http://health.yahoo.com/experts/theprinciples/archive/2006/06;_ylt=AkPLI_lpSsP40Qtq09BZdhtTis8F?in=0

Patrick Moore is a co-founder, along with David Jensen, of 12th STREET JAM:

http://www.12thstreetjam.com/

a new media production company that uses technology to produce content that brings people together and allows them to create self-discovery communities.

Patrick Moore is a cultural critic, television writer, journalist, and author of non-fiction books. In non-fiction, Moore has examined such hot-button issues as the crystal meth crisis and the aftermath of the 70s sexual revolution. Of Moore's book on the 70s, Publishers Weekly said, "As a detailed examination of the ways in which rage gives depth to art, Moore's book has no peer in recent memory." Moore's latest book examines how the principles of the recovery movement (honesty, responsibility, surrender, humility, forgiveness) can be adapted to everyday problems.

This guy has authored a book called "Tweaked"***

Format: Paperback: 224 pages.
Publisher: Kensington Pub Corp (06/06/2006)
ISBN: 0758212658
List price: $15.00

"Tweaked" can be purchased online at Yahoo Shopping @:

http://shopping.yahoo.com/p:Tweaked:3004706845;_ylt=AiZqUSaT3QN0To0isIqJ25BTis8F?clink=dmps/tweaked/ctx=mid:1,pid:3004706845,pdid:1,pos:2,spc:14489115,date:20060530,srch:kw,x:

or eBay @:

http://search.ebay.com/tweaked_W0QQfkrZ1QQfnuZ1QQxpufuZx

***
"Note:
So begins Patrick Moore's unforgettable account of life as a crystal meth addict--a "tweaker." Like a wild ride down Alice's rabbit hole with a guide who is darkly funny and heartbreakingly honest, Tweaked chronicles a twenty year trip that stretches from Moore's lonely childhood in Iowa with his grandmother, Zelma--an alcoholic artist who, when loaded, turns frozen food into craft projects--to the day he sits, naked, in a Los Angeles rental, hallucinating about psychorobbers while talking to a possum he's sure is God. Candid, gripping and ultimately triumphant, Tweaked is that rarest of memoirs--a tale so vivid and personal in the telling it feels like fiction, but every word is true."
ord guy - Replies: add


Crystal
THE NUMBER of gay men using crystal in Sydney almost doubled - from 12 to 20% - between 2002 and 2004, according to a 2,800-strong survey.

The Australian Society for HIV Medicine conference reported that 15.9% of newly-diagnosed HIV-positive men surveyed in 2004 were using meth at the time they believe they became infected. Injecting meth is widespread among gay men in Australia, and of particular concern to health officials due to the added risk of contracting diseases like HIV.

Meth use and abuse has since reached epidemic levels in all metropolitan gay communities, destroying the ambience of a once bustling club scene as the music turned darker and faster to cater for speeding customers, in the process driving out many non-users from the Oxford Street strip who now venture out only for the big dance parties.
anon - Replies: add


I've concentrated some data re Crystal Meth in Australia
A National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre study says that Australians are now 1.5 times as dependent on methamphetamine as on heroin, and the problem has become as widespread as dependent heroin use was during its peak in the late 1990s. The centre also reports that two-thirds of meth users become addicts. The drug has become socially acceptable in the absence of hard-hitting campaigns to stigmatise meth use, while an ABC Four Corners documentary, The Ice Age, blamed the Australian government for failing to respond to the emerging threat. Clandestine meth laboratories within Australia, particularly Queensland, have joined Asian suppliers to meet the surging demand. Chinese, Hong Kong and Malaysian syndicates previously involved in heroin importation switched to meth because it can be manufactured almost anywhere cheaply and, unlike cocaine and heroin, doesn't depend on crop cycles. As well as hitting the usual vulnerable groups, the syndicates have been targeting the wealthy mainstream Australian market with devastating success. Australian law varies from state to state; from a $2000 fine and/or two years imprisonment for possession to a $500,000 fine and/or life imprisonment for the supply of large amounts. Australian customs say most of the largest seizures of meth in recent years have arrived in disguised cargoes from China. In May 2003, Sydney Police oversaw the seizure of 223kg of ice, an extra-potent form of meth, which arrived at Port Botany hidden inside packets of rice noodles - bringing the total seized within Australia in the space of a few days to 423kg - and in October 2004, 125kg/US$74m of meth was uncovered in hollowed-out candles, amounting to 1.25 million potential street deals. However, fears of a step-up in domestic production were compunded when a vast laboratory, able to produce up to 500kg of ice a week and likened to the "superlabs of southeast Asia" - including a billion-dollar Fijian ice factory that was dismantled in 2004 - was discovered in northern NSW, resulting in Australia's biggest meth lab bust. AFB and Clandestine Drug Lab officers uncovered a series of buildings and a secret underground room containing laboratory equipment and precursor drugs including Seven men with links to Asian drug cartels were arrested under new national laws that elevated the importation of large amounts of meth precursors to the same crime category as the importation of meth itself. Following the success of a trial scheme in Queensland, which has resulted in the arrest of over a dozen people so far, NSW pharmacists are now able to join an online scheme enabling them to instantly identify suspected "psuedo-runners"; a term used to describe repeat purchasers of products containing the key precursor pseudoephedrine, who then sell them on to "speed factories". Domestically-manufactured crystal, known as ice or base, tends to be around 40% pure, compared to 80%+ for imported meth, and is up to 20 times more potent than normal speed. Police in Victoria, who have shut down 26 meth labs, have noted a sharp rise in ice users gripped by violent psychoses and are resorting to using Tasers (stun guns) to specifically deal with this type of behaviour, while ambulance crews in the state are administering sedatives to violent meth patients. Paramedics claim they are uncontrollable without enormous doses of sedation. Meth's rise in Australia has been aided by its easy availability and the weakening strength of domestically-produced ecstasy, which can be as little as 5% pure and comprise mainly methamphetamine. The poor quality and availability of ecstasy followed a massive police clampdown that fueled a huge demand and influx of meth into our cities. Similarly, the prohibitive cost of cocaine, at around $250 a gram, has pushed it out of the reach of most.

It is easy to understand crystal's appeal after years of being mercilessly conditioned into believing that the sex you innately desire is wrong or "perverted", and then having that lie reinforced by a virus that has transformed the most natural of acts of expression between two human beings into a dice with death. For those in conflict with their homosexual desires, crystal presents a mechanism to temporarily erase socially-conditioned and religiously-indoctrinated guilt and shame, while also serving as an "equaliser" by allowing users to meet across social spectrums and divides such as age, class, race and socio-economic groups, devoid of the fear and anxiety that otherwise usually impedes sexual performance between strangers or just simply engaging in conversation with other men. Factors like lack of self-confidence, low self-esteem and internalised homophobia no longer impact on the ability of meth-intoxicated gay men to initiate intimate and open sexual encounters, leading many to engage in risky behaviours endangering to their health and wellbeing. Inevitably, crystal meth has swiftly become the drug most abused by gay men, particularly those predisposed to sexual addiction.

extract from http://www.lifeormeth.com/australasiapacific
ord guy - Replies: add


Meth users: 4x more likely to be infected with HIV
Also in the absence of Australian studies, I refer to North American data here (which I believe is comparable):

Meth users are 4x more likely to be infected with HIV than other gay men & 6x less likely to use condoms during sex: http://www.aidsmap.com/en/news/7967A7D8-8DB3-43A0-8AF1-4D9BC26640CB.asp

Other recent statistical data based on studies of gay men across North America:

• 25% - the percentage of occasional crystal meth users who are HIV+;

• 40% - the percentage of chronic crystal meth users who are HIV+;

• 60% - the percentage of patients at outpatient treatment centres for meth abuse who are HIV+;

• 90% - the percentage of patients at inpatient treatment centers for meth abuse who are HIV+;

• 40 - the average age of a newly HIV-infected gay man in New York or San Francisco.


The union of crystal and Viagra - and, to an extent, GHB - has significantly contributed to the accelerating rate of HIV transmissions across the States in recent years, and a similar pattern is emerging in other countries where crystal is gaining a foothold within urban gay communities.

HIV+ individuals themselves are increasingly "self-medicating" with crystal in order to:

• Erase chronic fatigue syndrome;

• Alleviate the often unpleasant physical and psychological symptoms arising from the endless cocktail of often highly toxic drugs they are prescribed;

• Quell feelings of hopelessness and despair and the spectre of death, especially among those living in AIDS-ravaged ghettoes;

• Temporarily escape negative self-perceptions and social rejections associated with being positive.

Together with the rediscovered appetite for sex that crystal triggers, HIV+ meth users argue that the crash is a price worth paying, even though crystal is by far the worst social drug possible for those with HIV, because it:

• Ravages and depletes T-cell counts at an alarming rate by impairing the function of cytotoxic lymphocytes, which are critical for the immune system's first response to HIV, meaning that the user will need to go on medications sooner than he otherwise would have done (one HIV+ New Yorker is reported to have lost 250 T-cells over one weekend binge);

• Considerably exacerbates dopamine depletion (HIV+ infection alone destroys 12-20% of dopamine-associated brain cells), inducing an accelerated form of dementia (basal ganglia dysfunction) and Parkinson's-like movement disorders and loss of verbal skills (concurrent meth abuse and HIV infection appears to result in far greater impairment than each condition alone);

• Damages the lining of the blood vessels in the brain allowing more HIV-infected cells to reach the brain, then stimulates HIV replication in certain brain cells as much as 15-fold, increasing the production of substances which can lead to HIV encephalitis (brain inflammation);

• Increases viral loads and susceptibility to illnesses because the mind-impaired abuser frequently forgets to take his time sensitive dosages of HIV medication;

• Is a long-acting, indirect sympathomimetic and far more immuno-suppressive than HIV, leaving someone immuno-suppressed for days on end regardless of whether they are positive or negative;

• Erodes the body's immune system caused by missed meals, vitamin depletion, weight loss and disrupted sleep, which can trigger the onslaught of full-blown AIDS;

• Increases the risk of rhabdomyolysis - a potentially fatal disease that destroys skeletal muscle - if the user needs to take a statin to lower cholesterol levels.

The rate of HIV infection among gay and bisexual men across the US has risen 18% since 1999 - the highest rate of increase since the epidemic began over 20 years ago.

HIV+ men who engage in unprotected sex with each other (serosorting) are at risk of catching or transmitting more virulent and drug-resistant mutant strains of the virus, while re-infection (superinfection) can destroy the immune control built up fighting the original strain, jeopardising the progress of AIDS vaccines already in development. Some highly sexually active men who were assumed to be immune to catching HIV have seroconverted since succumbing to crystal, which has been shown in tests to destroy the rare protective protein in their cellular make-up.

Mental health problems such as clinical depression and anxiety are greatly exacerbated by meth use, particularly among those with HIV and AIDS.


In a 2001 study of HIV+ men who use meth, 81% reported having a lifetime diagnosis of depression and 42% were taking psychiatric medications. In the same study, published in the US Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, some participants reported being prescribed Ritalin by their childhood doctors because they were seen as hyperactive and/or suffering from attention deficit disorder (ADD). Due to the restrictions of the US health-care system, they self-medicate their ongoing condition with crystal. Similarly, meth is used by some with bipolar disorder to self-medicate the manic highs and depressive lows of the disease.

(Extracted - and edited - from: http://www.lifeormeth.com/australasiapacific)
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


"SMART RECOVERY' for crystal users in Sydney: Clinical Services Team, St Vincents Hospital Alcohol and Drug Service. Ph: 02-9361-8020. email: cst@stvincents.com.au

CRYSTAL METH ANONYMOUS (Sydney) meets 7pm every Tuesday at Mission Australia Building, 4-10 Campbell Street, Surry Hills. Stuart: 0410 324384"

Smart Recovery also meets at ACON every Wednesday from 6.30pm.
- Replies: add


73,000 Australians estimated to be addicted to crystal meth
Australia is in the grip of a mainstream epidemic which claimed at least 75 lives in 2004.


The first AIDS Council of New South Wales meth forum in July 2004 sparked intense debate and outrage when ACON researchers asserted there was no causal link between crystal use and unsafe sex, and that an "insignificant" proportion of the community used the drug.

"There are a lot of serious issues associated with crystal, but the sky's not falling in," Sean Slavin said at the time, speaking on behalf of the Australian Research Centre in Sex, Health and Society. Community members reacted particularly furiously to ACON president Adrian Lovney's summing up: "We shouldn't be driving our response by anecdote."

"Anecdotal evidence is a legitimate form of evidence," community member Norrie May-Welby told the gay newspaper Sydney Star Observer after the forum. "I say there's enough smoke coming from the hills for us to call the fire brigade, without us doing a research project just to check no-one is sending smoke signals," she said, while attendee Peter Dragicevich told the paper, "I think ACON has been strangely reluctant to work on a hard-hitting campaign aimed solely at keeping people off the drug."

ACON previously described a sex club's decision to import anti-meth posters from the States as "not terribly helpful." Their chief executive officer, Stevie Clayton, told the Star: "What happens is people who don't use crystal start thinking that crystal is the problem which is causing HIV transmission, and therefore if they don't use it they're not at risk, and people start thinking people who do use crystal are bad and are the people who are transmitting HIV." ACON isn't new to controversy: its bathroom facilities are equipped with sanitary bins for needles and syringes for the convenience of visitors and employees who self-inject meth on the premises.

Acknowledging how out of touch ACON has been on the issue, in a follow-up forum in November 2004, Clayton conceded that the community meetings were "really successful in terms of information sharing - we think that people's personal experience is as important as formal research, so we're taking a lot from people's responses at the forums." Whether some of that information has inspired ACON's new meth information guide is open to debate. Among the advice and tips it includes for users are Have a hot shower or apply a hot washcloth to the injecting site for a few minutes, and/or pump your hand or arm up and down to increase blood flow, and Keep a spare pipe available in case one becomes damaged or becomes too hot...

Meanwhile, National Drugs and Alcohol Research Centre spokesman, Paul Dillon - who once described meth as "the drug of the moment" - has dismissed now conclusive findings from the US linking meth use to HIV infection, maintaining in the Australian newspaper last September that "other factors" are at play. Advised of the link and the increasing influence of meth within the club and online sex scene by LIFEORMETH as far back as April 2003, Dillon and ACON remained steadfast in their denial in the absence of firm evidence, even though a Melbourne gay sex shop retailer was reporting a ten-fold increase in sales of glass pipes.

Refecting the failure to respond with preventive measures when meth was prevalent but contained in the gay community, Australia is now in the grip of a mainstream epidemic.

Meth first appeared in significant quantities in Sydney and Melbourne in 1998, but its resurgence claimed at least 75 lives in 2004 in incidences where the drug was mentioned, of which meth was the primary cause of death in 17 of the cases. The figure was up from 50 the previous year, and 33 deaths occurred in NSW alone. 73,000 Australians - 12,000 in Sydney alone - are now estimated to be addicted to meth.

(also extracted from: http://www.lifeormeth.com/australasiapacific )
ord guy - Replies: 1, add
Extracted from article titled "ACON and NDARC Ignored Meth Threat in 2003". Author not stated.


Re:
"I wonder how we minimise harm from barebacking?"

guys are already doing it by sero-sorting. sure it's not failsafe, but quite obviously this is a form of harm minimization for barebacking.

------------------------

Sero-sorting is not a harm minimisation strategy promoted by any health body. All agencies strongly advise condom use - this, however, is a form of abstinence (from barebacking) and the point being made was that to have a message policy of harm minimisation about crystal meth is not only unhealthy, dangerous and inappropiate, it is also INCONSISTENT with the ABSTINENCE message policy re barebacking.
anon - Replies: 1, add


causal links...
I seem to recall back in 2000, sex club Signal had started using overseas crystal meth posters in response to an official position that there was no causal link between crystal (and ghb etc) and unsafe sex. The gay press still runs articles by our orgs. to express this view.

Viagra use is heavily associated with crystal methamphetamine. Gay men who used crystal meth and Viagra together were six times as likely as nonusers to contract syphilis, according to the San Francisco health department. Recently, the org blamed poz men for syph increases. Statistics from another study showed that Viagra users were 6.5 times as likely to have had insertive anal sex without a condom.

Here, the HIM study found an increase in the use of Viagra and crystal meth between 2000 and February 2004. The use of Ecstasy and heroin remained fairly consistent. Viagra,
cocaine and crystal meth were used by between 15% and 20% of the men surveyed.

I think some people need a flashing neon sign on their causal link before they can acknowledge it.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


'Harm reduction' is a symptom of the ongoing problem
Many who profess to having their crystal intake under control are, in reality, at the top of a very slippery slope, if not already at the stage where they are masking or denying a serious problem. Many top medical specialists now agree that meth is completely controllable only by a small minority of people, which is why it can never accurately be termed a "recreational drug", such is its insidiousness and ability to creep up on even the most responsible of users.

In an Advocate poll of over 1000 readers, 75% said that meth cannot be used responsibly as an occasional recreational drug, 19% said it could, and 6% were undecided. 

Harm reduction, by definition, implies that the average crystal user accessing such information has a degree of control over his intake, which is clearly not true and so sends out a confusing and misleading message to the majority of users who are in the throes of addiction. Harm reduction resources devoted to crystal meth - which have included such tips as Seven safer slamming techniques! and Keep a $10 note rolled up in a safe place in case of emergencies! - however well-intentioned, merely serve as a green light to those being controlled by their addiction. Such approaches are, at best, a validation that it is okay to use.

LIFE OR METH approaches crystal from the perspective that it is a drug which is mostly impossible to control consistently, and so encourages abstinence by instead addressing the issues around low self-esteem and lack of self-worth that lead to many people using in the first place. Harm reduction, at least in relation to crystal, effectively serves to validate, sustain and perpetuate meth's hold in the community, thus encouraging its spread. Harm reduction is, therefore, a symptom of the ongoing problem...
clean 4 10 - (http://www.lifeormeth.com/australasiapacific) - Replies: add


Well I have used xtal at dance parties, had a fabulous time (but not really different from ordinary speed) and had no desire whatever to take it again for several months. I don't doubt that what is said above is correct. However, exaggerating the dangers of a drug just alienates the thousands of people who know that this "truth" is only partial.
Xtallographer - Replies: 1, 2, 3, 4, add
Re:
Fair enough, except according to some of ther above, you are in a minority.
ord guy - Replies: add
Re:
well, there are two issues here, the link between HIV transmission and crystal use - and crystal addiction.

I am really glad that you didn't become addicted but for many guys, crystal use is a regular habit that becomes an addiction from which there seems no escape. They begine doing it every weekend, then its midweek as well, and within a very short time, it's every day. I think the scientific evidence presented here proves that fairly conclusively. I wonder too, whether some guys are born with an 'addiction gene'?

As for unsafe sex and crystal tweakers, once again the evidence is overwhelming. So if it doesn't get ya on the roundabout, it'll probably bring ya down on the swings.

Do you remember as a kid thinking you were going to have the very best out of life? Well, I did. 25 years of chronic addiction later, there were some choices I wish I had considered more carefully.

:)
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
'Well I have used xtal at dance parties, had a fabulous time (but not really different from ordinary speed) and had no desire whatever to take it again for several months. I don't doubt that what is said above is correct. However, exaggerating the dangers of a drug just alienates the thousands of people who know that this "truth" is only partial.'

Taking all of the above into consideration, it's obvious that it's unnecessary to exaggerate the dangers of crytsal meth abuse (though on our local GLBTQ NGO website there is NO such educational data except harm minimisation material). It looks very much to me as if, rather than being exaggerated, the crystal meth problem in our community is being trivialised - or more accurately, denied. Ignored at the very least.
anon - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Well I have used xtal at dance parties, had a fabulous time (but not really different from ordinary speed) and had no desire whatever to take it again for several months."

The gaps get progressively shorter according to most anecdotal reports.

"However, exaggerating the dangers of a drug just alienates the thousands of people"

These statistics on here are fact, not exaggeration.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
that's a bit cynical, why would they choose to ignore the crystal epidemic just because they are making a motza out of the crystal dance parties?
confused - Replies: add
Re:
"Sero-sorting is not a harm minimisation strategy promoted by any health body."


Well not officially. There was that ill-fated (too wordy) campaign by ACON a couple of years back trying to explain that poz guys bottoming and neg guys topping in bareback not being a fool proof way of avoiding HIV. it was too wordy so i don't think it worked.

And there was DEFINITELY the Talk Test Test Trust campaign years ago - which was definitely harm minimisation with barebacking (within r'ships anyway).

As for crystal users, we have to accept that some people will just do stupid things regardless of what others tell them (just look at smoking) perhaps money is better spent on educating other people who will actually listen.

Money spent on crystal education is probably better spent fitting out psych wards with padding on the walls so that crystal patients can eat their heart out jerking off for 16 hours straight (as described by a St Vincent's hospital on Four Corners a couple of months back).
- Replies: 1, 2, add


Many party promoters exercise a double standard in enforcing a zero-tolerance policy towards GHB.
GHB (gamma hydroxybutyrate) is derived from GBL (gamma butyrolactone), feel-good drugs which, if used sensibly, leave the system in an hour or so with no lasting detrimental effect, but, if overdosed, induce a deep, coma-like sleep. If recklessly consumed in significant quantities with alcohol and other drugs, or by those with abnormal blood pressure, GHB can kill.

Understandably, the unwholesome prospect of on-site paramedics tending to messy customers sprawled around their plush premises prompted promoters to clamp down hard on GHB, yet countless other party-goers introduced to, and ensnared by, crystal meth at the same venues suffer unimaginable physiological and psychological turmoil long after the music has stopped - out-of-sight and, therefore, conveniently out-of-mind.

How can it be acceptable for club promoters and owners to effectively condone the presence of meth - "the silent killer" - by turning a blind eye while focusing all their efforts on banning the comparatively less harmful, but messier, GHB? The often extortionate prices they charge for entry into their events ensures that they have the resources to:

• Exercise a similar zero-tolerance approach towards crystal meth

• Issue the full facts of the consequences of meth addiction to patrons at entry points

• Clamp down on their DJs' "crystal-friendly" playlists

• Stamp out meth-induced anti-social behaviour

Not for the first time, it is the leather community that has taken the lead among circuit party promoters, setting the example for others to follow. 

2005's International Male Leather (IML) event in Chicago was billed as a crystal zero-tolerence event, with tweakers and dealers told to STAY HOME! We have no use for crystal meth at any of our functions, and warned in advance that they would be handed over to the police. IML proved how easy and effective such an approach can be, and in San Diego last summer, gay bar and club owners met to discuss establishing a similar policy towards meth use in their premises, while in Montreal, the organisers of 2005's Black & Blue fesival posted anti-crystal messages on the inside of cubicle doors at every party. One read Crystal is best at Tiffany's!

While some argue that all drugs are harmful, period, such generalising woefully ignores the fact that all drugs are not created equal.

(When will Australia follow this lead?)

From "Ecstasy The Lie" (Author unstated), Life Or Meth.
http://www.lifeormeth.com/australasiapacific
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Contrary to the negative mainstream press ecstasy has received,...
... thousands of gay men used the pill throughout its 1980/90s heyday to erase barriers, connect with feelings they would otherwise not allow themselves to feel, and to come together in tribal union at circuit events and for several hours on a Saturday night with no long-lasting or progressively debilitating affects. By comparison, the meth high may last longer and make the user initially feel euphoric and alert the first few times he uses, but he will also be argumentative, self-righteous, interruptive, agitated and aloof even before the impending crash sets in.

Meth is ecstasy's polar opposite having spawned an ugly breed of insecure, paranoid, sexually- intense party-goer, and transformed once uplifting dance environments into sinister, predatory battlegrounds of testosterone-soaked hostility.

Ego and power play have always been ugly mainstays of gay club culture, but crystal has fast made them the dominant force. Ecstasy users and others out for a fun time can't express themselves in environments poisoned by the fatalistic crystal vibe. Their laughter and exchanges of affection are often met with bitter, resentful looks and even abuse from tweakers forcing many to quit the scene in despair, while others have allowed themselves to become assimilated into the crystal herd, thereby perpetuating and reinforcing tina's grip.

From "Ecstasy The Lie" (author unstated) Life Or Meth

http://www.lifeormeth.com/australasiapacific
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
I bet that generated an anonymous letter to the Health department, ord guy :)

I was at that first forum.

People did indeed get angry with the HIV research-based focus. They wanted to talk about the damage that Crystal was doing to the people they loved and they weren't in the slightest bit interested in HIV infection risk as a basis for discussion.

The next few forums concentrated on the personal damage aspect and didn't go into HIV risk.

Paul Dillon described meth as "the drug of the moment" because it was the drug upon which media attention was focussing at the time. It's a dangerous drug for many users but its not the most widely used - or in mortality terms, the most dangerous - drug around.
- Replies: 1, 2, add


HIV+ individuals themselves are increasingly "self-medicating" with crystal in order to:

• Erase chronic fatigue syndrome;

That one even I can understand, but beyond caffeine and those kickass concentrated softdrinks, I'm not prepared to entrust my life to an unknown dosage of a material than can be anything from a mild high to deadly in just one dose.

Surely the come down has to be worse? Any substance used to defeat fatigue usually has a kickback when it wears off, leaving you in worse health than prior to using it.

If Xtalographer can use occasionally without "addiction" then good luck to him, but how long before instead of every months it's every few days? Do you really want to take that risk?

Anyone with CFS knows (whether the genuine article like mine of the symptomatic impersonation of HIV), when you have a good day, if you make the mistake of overdoing it, it increases the number of bad days back in bed, so even on those good days, starting to defrost the fridge is a good idea, but doing it all at once means being laid up for a another week.

One of my medications is highly addictive in that if you don't wean off it, the side effects are psychological torture, however I consider this substance very valuable, and if I have to go off it for any reason, it's always cold turkey, because I'm not going to "waste" the quantity to run down.

Pixguy: Your personal honesty, as always, is enlightening.
The Professor Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


Re:
I never got that Talk Test Test Trust campaign. Does 'talk' mean ask him if he's neg? One in 6 around here are poz, and with all the pressures of drug psychosis, hivphobia etc., are u really supposed to put your life on his word? And then 'test'. Are you meant to have a test, the another one after 3 months abstinence, before you stick it in?

My guess is that for most guys, "Talk Test Test Trust" means "trust", a fatal mistake in so many cases.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add


Why is crystal tolerated by NGO's, accepted as inevitable, even encouraged by 'how-to' kits and rovers to create a 'drug safe party space', while there is no compromise on HIV?

The long term psychological effects of ghb/crystal are unknown, we may find in the future, when this community is laid low with chronic mental disease etc., that we were focussed on the wrong epidemic.

Crystal is not cool, or sexy, or gay. It makes users very ugly and definitely dud roots.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


'The Other Epidemic"
In his book "The Politics of Crystal Meth (Gay Men Share Stories of Addiction and Recovery)" (Universal Pulishers, Boca Raton, Florida USA 2005) Kenneth Cimino, PhD, MPA, reports of:

'...media, only a few moths ago, reported of a "supervirus" case, involving a gay meth user in New York City, who contracted a rare, drug resistent strain of HIV through unsafe sex, shedding light on the connection between crystal meth use and rising HIV and STD infection rates among gay men. All over the country HIV educators, politicians, AIDS activists, drug counsellors and writers are sounding the alarm to the dangers of crystal meth use. As the distressing personal stories of gay crystal meth addicts continue to arrive, and the traditional safe-sex messages seem to be losing hold, the LGBTQ community is facing what has been termed "the other epidemic".'

He goes on with statistical quotes:

'More than 12 million Americans have tried methamphetamine, and 1.5 million are regular users, according the the National Institute of Drug Abuse.

Recent studies show that 15 - 17 per cent of gay men have used meth in the last 3 months and as many as 20 per cent have used in the last year, according to Centres for Disease Control & Prevention.

In Los Angeles nearly one out of three gay men who tested posotive for HIV last year reported also using crystal, and that percentage has tripled since 2001, according to a new study of 19,000 by Los Angeles Gay Lesbian Centre.

In New York, 50 per cent of gay men who admitted to using drugs or alcohol in the previous year had also tried crystal meth - up from 10 per cent of gay men surveyed in bars and clubs in 1998, according to the Centre for HIV/AIDS Educational Studies and Training.

Meth use is related to increased numbers of sexual partners, decreased use of condoms, prostitution, sex with known IDUs (Moliter et al., 1998) and an increased likelihood of being HIV infected or having an STD (Chesney et al., 1998, Moliter et al., 1998)

84% of HIV+ MSM reported engaging in risky sex (e.g. UAI, anonymous sex) while high on meth (Semple, Patterson and Grant, 2002.'
anon - Replies: add


Re:
"perhaps money is better spent on educating other people who will actually listen."

Perhaps you're wrong.

"Money spent on crystal education is probably better spent fitting out psych wards with padding on the walls so that crystal patients can eat their heart out jerking off for 16 hours straight (as described by a St Vincent's hospital on Four Corners a couple of months back)."

No. Prevention is always better than cure.
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Re:
"honesty, as always, is enlightening." perhaps if some in our community were more honest about their agenda, we'd eventually be a whole lot happier and healthier community.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
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It doesn't involve initiating unprotected sex without ensuring serostatus - that's where the "tests" bit comes in - and it doesn't involve abstinence either.

"Talk Test Test Trust" was developed in the mid 90's. It's designed for neg guys in an on going relationship and is based on talking about discarding condoms, getting tested twice and then - and only then - discarding condoms with each other. Most people who do have this arrangement also have relationship agreements that commit to having only protected sex outside the relationship and, yes, it relies on trust and trust isn't 100% reliable.
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Re:
'Paul Dillon described meth as "the drug of the moment" because it was the drug upon which media attention was focussing at the time.'

I wonder whether it occured to him WHY the media attn was focussing on crystal.
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More on NDARC study & quote from Sydney's St Vincent's Hospital emergency care director:
A National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre study has found the methamphetamine problem is now as large as heroin abuse was during its peak in the late 1990s. As many as 73,000 people nationwide are addicted to methamphetamine, about 1 1/2 times the number of heroin addicts. The NDARC study found a 58 per cent rise in the number of hospital admissions for drug-related psychosis since 1999. Between 2003 and last year, 3190 methamphetamine users across the nation were taken to hospital for mental and behaviour disorders.

Sydney's St Vincent's Hospital emergency care director Gordian Fulde estimated violence associated with crystal meth in his hospital had risen five-fold between 2000 and last year. "I have been emergency department director here for 25 years and nothing has scared me as much as these people," Dr Fulde said. "We see people who are totally disinhibited, totally violent and out of control."

Extracted from the article "Crystal Is The New Heroin" by NAPNT Amphetablog team @ http://www.napnt.org/2005/09/australia-crystal-meth-is-new-heroin.html
ord guy - Replies: add


'Ice' (crystal methamphetamine hydrochloride) Extracted from Drug Info Clearinghouse(rev12 Apr 2006)
Ice use in Australia

In 2004, 3.2 per cent of Australians aged 14 years and older had used amphetamines for nonmedical purposes in the previous year and over 38 per cent of this group reported the type of amphetamine they used was ice. 1

Ice use among injecting drug users increased from 15 per cent in 2000 to 52 per cent in 2004. 2

In 2004, 63 per cent of a sample of people who used ecstasy had tried ice at least once and 45 per cent had used ice in the past 6 months. 3

Immediate effects
Soon after taking ice, a person may experience a number of psychological and physical effects including:

feelings of euphoria, excitement and well being
increased alertness, confidence and libido, more energy, feelings of increased strength, talkativeness, restlessness, repeating simple acts, and itching, picking and scratching
tremors of the hands and fingers
speeding up of bodily functions, such as increased breathing rate, body temperature, blood pressure, a rapid and irregular heartbeat and excessive sweating
difficulty sleeping, reduced appetite, dilated pupils, dry mouth, stomach cramps, nausea, dizziness, blurred vision and severe headaches
abrupt shifts in thought and speech, which can make someone using ice difficult to understand
nervousness, panic attacks, anxiety, paranoia
irritability, aggression, hostility and “amphetamine psychosis”, including hallucinations, paranoid delusions and bizarre behaviour.
The variable purity of each batch of ice increases the risk of negative effects and overdose.

Coming down
As the effects of ice wear off, a person may experience a range of symptoms such as tension, depression, radical mood swings, uncontrollable violence and exhaustion.

Long-term effects
Long-term use of ice can result in a number of health issues, including:

high blood pressure and increased risk of heart-related complications such as heart attack and heart failure
malnutrition and rapid weight loss due to reduced appetite
chronic sleeping problems
reduced immunity and increased susceptibility to infections due to the person not sleeping or eating properly
depression, anxiety, tension and paranoia
brain damage (there is some evidence that amphetamines may damage brain cells resulting in reduced memory function and other impairments in thinking)
dental problems (from grinding teeth)
smoking ice can damage the lungs
snorting ice can damage the lining of the nose
injecting ice can lead to scarring, abscesses and vein damage. Sharing injecting equipment increases the risk of contracting blood-borne viruses, such as hepatitis B and C, and HIV.
Other effects and issues
Due to some of the effects of ice, some people may be more prone to practice unsafe sex. This increases the chances of contracting sexually transmitted infections and blood-borne viruses, such as hepatitis B and C, and HIV.

As well as health problems, using ice (or any drug) can result in family, financial, legal, work, school and other personal problems. These problems can be made much worse because some people who use ice can become irritable, hostile and violent and/or experience other psychological problems. It is also dangerous to drive a vehicle or operate machinery after using ice.


Tolerance and dependence
People who use ice can quickly develop a tolerance to the drug so that increasingly greater doses are needed to achieve the desired effects. Ice can also lead to physical and/or psychological dependence. People who are psychologically dependent on ice find that using it becomes far more important than other activities in their life. They crave the drug and find it very difficult to stop using it. Physical dependence occurs when a person’s body adapts to the drug and the body gets used to functioning with the drug present. If a person who is physically dependent on ice suddenly stops taking it they may experience withdrawal symptoms.

Withdrawal
Some of the symptoms people may experience once they have stopped using ice include:

disorientation
hunger
extreme fatigue and exhaustion
decreased energy, apathy and the limited ability to experience pleasure
anxiety, irritability and depression
craving ice.

For more information on amphetamines, other drugs and drug prevention contact the DrugInfo Clearinghouse on tel. 1300 85 85 84, email druginfo@adf.org.au.

References
1 Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (AIHW) 2005 2004 National Drug Strategy Household Survey: Detailed findings, Canberra: AIHW

2 National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre (NDARC) 2005 Australian Drug Trends 2004: Findings from the Illicit Drug Reporting System, Sydney: NDARC

3 NCDARC 2005 Australian Trends in Ecstasy and Related Drug Markets 2004: Findings from the Party Drug Initiative, Sydney: NDARC

(Extracted from Drug Info Clearinghouse, Drug Prevention Network site - revised Wed 12 April 2006) @ http://www.druginfo.adf.org.au/article.asp?ContentID=ice_crystal_methamphetamine_hy
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
[extracted from] transcript of: The World Today broadcast - Australia 12:10pm ABC Local Radio - Thursday, 27 October 2005

ELEANOR HALL: The first detailed look at methamphetamine use in Australia in a decade shows that the drug is becoming more popular and that an alarming number of people are becoming dependent on its use. The National Drug and Alcohol Research Council has this morning released its report into the supply and impact of the drugs commonly known as speed, ice, base or crystal meth. And the Council has revealed that twice as many Australians are dependent on methamphetamines as on heroin. Tanya Nolan reports.

TANYA NOLAN: The report is a national snapshot of the growing use of methamphetamines, but it pays particular attention to the Sydney market: patterns of supply, use, personal harm and social consequences. And one of its key findings is that there's been a high level of crystal methamphetamine use over the past 10 years, the highest quality form of the drug, which often has a purity of around 80 per cent and can be bought for around $50 for 0.1 of a gram. Report author, Dr Rebecca McKetin, is a research fellow with the National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre. And she says the many different forms the drug now comes in means it's found much broader appeal

REBECCA MCKETIN: It was clear from our research that methamphetamine has been marketed to a far broader audience than what it was back in the 1990’s. Of particular concern is the popularity of the more pure forms of methamphetamine, known as base and ice. These more pure forms of the drug have taken a stronghold in our market and now make up over two-thirds of methamphetamine consumed in Sydney.

TANYA NOLAN: Dr McKetin says the more readily available, more pure forms of the drug, means many more users have become dependent on it.

REBECCA MCKETIN: Over half of the ice users that we interviewed were dependent on methamphetamine. The third major finding from the study was that ice-smokers also had very high levels of dependence, levels of dependence among people who smoked ice were akin to what we see among injecting methamphetamine users. People who did smoke ice tended to be young, recreational drug users, who in every other sense were fairly well adjusted with good levels of education, high levels of employment and little background in a criminal sense.

TANYA NOLAN: One of the more serious side effects from sustained methamphetamine use is hallucinations and psychosis. And Dr McKetin says it's one of the findings of the study that was particularly worrying

REBECCA MCKETIN: We found that the prevalence of methamphetamine psychosis was 11 times higher among methamphetamine users than among the general population. Almost one quarter of the methamphetamine users that we interviewed had experienced psychosis in the past year. These symptoms of psychosis were also prevalent among people who didn’t have any history of mental health problems. One of the hallmarks of methamphetamine psychosis is aggressive and violent behaviour. Over one quarter of the people who had experienced psychosis also experienced aggressive or hostile behaviour at the time that they were psychotic.

TANYA NOLAN: This violent behaviour has meant methamphetamine addictions have been harder to treat, demanding more attention and resources from frontline workers. Dr Amanda Baker is a clinical psychologist with the Centre for Mental Health Studies at the University of Newcastle, and she says many amphetamine users are not aware they have a problem with dependence.

AMANDA BAKER: Detoxification from each drug type does vary. With amphetamines, as Rebecca said, the physical withdrawal may not be as severe, but the level of dependence can be such that the psychological symptomatology and dealing with living without the drug can be quite severe for people. So often people need lots of help in learning to just live everyday life again without the drug. In terms of services for detoxification, there is much more an emphasis on community detoxification these days. In terms of services, generally, for amphetamine users, there’s basically a great need for training among drug and alcohol workers, mental health workers, in how to deal with people with amphetamine use problems.

TANYA NOLAN: With 73,000 Australians classified as dependent on methamphetamines, Dr Baker says many more drug and alcohol counsellors need to be trained in treating the mental health problems associated with the addiction.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1491900.htm
ord guy - Replies: add


For HIV-positive men, methamphetamine can cause deadly interctions with HIV meds
(Extracted from: Stigmatising Crystal Meth, By DUNCAN OSBORNE, gaycitynews.com VOLUME 2, ISSUE 29, JULY 18-24, 2003) http://www.gaycitynews.com/gcn229/stigmatizingcrystal.html

Australia:
...Leigh recently spent time in Australia vacationing and promoting the site. Now he is in the U.S. for fun and to advertise lifeormeth.com. He has met with members of Crystal Meth Anonymous, a 12 step group that helps users get and stay clean, as well as some AIDS and gay groups. “We work with lifeormeth .com in our prevention work,” said Marc Cohen, president of Miami’s United Foundation for AIDS. “It’s the web site that we refer all of our outreach contacts to. It’s become a very important resource in the work that we do.” Lifeormeth.com could not be more timely. Crystal is very popular among gay men and it may be the most dangerous drug that they use. “Crystal meth, more than other drugs, seems to be emerging as the most potent and deleterious in terms of health,” said Paul Galatowitsch, director of study recruitment and community outreach at the Center for HIV/AIDS Educational Studies and Training (CHEST). “The drug has spread. It is cheap and it is powerful.” CHEST has done ten studies looking at gay men’s sex lives and drug use since 1997. Every study has asked questions about crystal use. The center’s 1999 Project Tina study looked only at crystal use and its current Project Bumps is investigating gay men’s use of five party drugs including crystal. “It’s beyond highly addictive,” Galatowitsch said. “Physically methamphetamine is incredibly, powerfully addictive and it causes clear damage.” In New York City, unlike the Midwest and the West Coast, gay crystal users come from all walks of life, according to Galatowitsch. Crystal turns on the sex drive as it makes judging what is safe more difficult. “Crystal more powerfully impairs one’s capacity to engage in safe sexual behavior,” Galatowitsch said. “One of the principal reasons for this is, unlike other drugs, crystal is an extraordinarily powerful aphrodisiac.”

Men who are HIV-positive are likely to experience even greater damage from doing crystal. “For HIV-positive men, methamphetamine is considerably more dangerous,” Galatowitsch said. “It can interact with HIV medications causing deadly interactions... Crystal has been shown to increase HIV viral activity in the brain and it accelerates HIV-related dementia.” One measure of crystal use in the gay community is that of the 15 Crystal Meth Anonymous meetings listed on crystalmeth.org, the group’s web site, every one is held at either the Lesbian, Gay Bisexual, and Transgender Community Center, the Gay Men’s Health Crisis (GMHC), or the Callen-Lorde Community Health Center. In a letter to the editor in the last issue of Gay City News, a CMA member wrote that there are now 18 weekly meetings in New York City. Nationally, CMA has grown from ten meetings in Los Angeles a few years ago to over 150 in a dozen states, a member wrote in response to an e-mail query. The drug’s power moved Leigh to largely reject a harm reduction approach on lifeormeth.com in favor of a more forceful tone. Harm reduction assumes that while users may not be ready to quit, they can reduce a drug’s negative effects. Such programs––Leigh calls them the “PC brigade”––tend to use careful, non-judgmental language. “Harm reduction implies that you can control the habit,” Leigh said. “A lot of these sites—they are kind of almost glamorizing it. They don’t want to offend anybody.” While CHEST does not have a position on harm reduction for crystal users; Galatowitsch did say that the philosophy may be uniquely unsuited for addressing crystal use. “Crystal has unique pharmacological properties that preclude safe usage,” he said. “This is what underlies the debate about why harm reduction my be an inappropriate model. Its pharmacological effects on the brain and the body make it impossible to use safely.”
anon - Replies: add


Perhaps our 'people' might like to speak with St. Vinnies to see what they can do to help. I'm sure Gordian Fulde would like a chat with them. And maybe the charity pot from the drug parties should go to someone who is making an honest effort to help, rather than to those who market addiction with advice like, "use crystal with people you know and trust. Use in places where you feel safe." (We'll have our people at the party to hold your hand, sweety.) I mean isn't tis what REBECCA MCKETIN meant when she said, "methamphetamine has been marketed to a far broader audience than what it was back in the 1990’s"?
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Re:
"perhaps money is better spent on educating other people who will actually listen."
Perhaps you're wrong.

"Money spent on crystal education is probably better spent fitting out psych wards with padding on the walls so that crystal patients can eat their heart out jerking off for 16 hours straight (as described by a St Vincent's hospital on Four Corners a couple of months back)."

No. Prevention is always better than cure.


You seem to be contradicting yourself. on the one hand you say "perhaps you're wrong" when talkingabout "educating people who'll acutally listen" - and on the other you are saying "prevention is better than a cure".

But isn't "educating people who will listen" really just prevention?

And from this discussion here you should realise that some people will do as they please regardless of how much money organisations spend telling them that something is dangerous (smoking, unsafe sex, crystal use, speeding, drink driving).

Why are we throwing good money after bad? We should accpet that some people will just not do what is best for themselves and cut our losses. Unless we want to radically change the way we deal with drug abuse and unsafe sex (ie. lock em all up where they can't hurt others), then we have to accept that some pple will continue to treat themselves badly no matter what we do.
Just saying it like it is. - Replies: 1, 2, 3, 4, add


Kofi Annan:"Talent, teamwork and a level playing field - it's no wonder we look up to the World Cup"
"THE World Cup makes us at the United Nations green with envy...Everywhere people are dissecting the games, revealing an intimate knowledge of their own teams and many others. Tongue-tied teenagers suddenly become eloquent and dazzlingly analytical. I wish we had more of that sort of conversation in the world at large: citizens consumed by the topic of how their country could do better on the Human Development Index, or exercised about how to reduce carbon emissions or HIV infections."

Sydney Morning Herald June 13, 2006

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/if-only-world-politics-could-be-as-well-organised-as-the-world-game/2006/06/12/1149964467431.html
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"And from this discussion here you should realise that some people will do as they please regardless of how much money organisations spend telling them that something is dangerous (smoking, unsafe sex, crystal use, speeding, drink driving)."

Give me one good reason for safe v unsafe sex to be a chosen subject of NGO health education/disease prevention for gay men and not crystal meth? Why condem barebacking but condone crystal use?
I don't think you can make you mind up "how it is" - Replies: add


Re:
No, it's not what she meant and she wouldn't agree with your
suggestion that harm minimisation equates to "marketing addiction" either.

It's possible to reduce harm and encourage cessation concurrently. It's not all one thing or the other.
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Re:
"We should accpet that some people will just not do what is best for themselves and cut our losses."

Please specify which losses you refer to? If you're saying prevention campaigns are a waste of resources why not scrub HIV prevention education campaigns and the costly bodies funded to run them?

"we have to accept that some pple will continue to treat themselves badly no matter what we do."

Take a class of kids. Some will never learn, sure, but the majority do IF they have something presented for them to learn. Where is the community education on crystal meth?
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"cut our losses" may be as smart a direction to take as the 'harm reduction' one. With at least 20% of Sydney queers using, we are on the brink of another epidemic. Crystal is highly addictive. Addiction is a progressive and difficult-to-reverse disease. More and more gays are going to be starting to use. Nobody knows what the long term results will be. In a way I wish we could just "cut our losses", but you are cutting off a huge swathe of the community. Somebody better wise up soon. As the guy above said, "Harm reduction implies that you can control the habit A lot of these sites—they are kind of almost glamorizing it. They don’t want to offend anybody.” Crystal has unique pharmacological properties that preclude safe usage. This is what underlies the debate about why harm reduction my be an inappropriate model. Its pharmacological effects on the brain and the body make it impossible to use safely.”
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
"Why are we throwing good money after bad? We should accpet that some people will just not do what is best for themselves and cut our losses. Unless we want to radically change the way we deal with drug abuse and unsafe sex (ie. lock em all up where they can't hurt others), then we have to accept that some pple will continue to treat themselves badly no matter what we do."

If Australia could afford to adopt that negative/defeatist approach there'd be no need for any kind of prevention strategy. But as a United Nations member we are obliged to address issues like HIV, which involves promoting community awareness of risk behaviour, like unsafe sex and crystal meth abuse. If the facts are out there people have choices, if they aren't, how can they be expected top know? What purpose do you think health education bodies are funded to serve?
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Re:
"It's possible to reduce harm and encourage cessation concurrently. It's not all one thing or the other."

There IS no "concurrent cessation encouragement" alongside harm reduction efforts from our GLBT NGOs. Unless of course you can enlighten us to the contrary?
The only reference to crystal at my local NGO - apart from instructions on how to consume it - is the refusal to acknowledge any "causal links" between that drug and HIV transmission.

(PS But in any case how do you imagine you can say to people "use crystal doing the least possible harmful way to yourself" AND "Don't use crystal" in the same policy? And if you can, and if such an initiative exists, please direct us to it.)
ord guy - Replies: add


- Tue 13 Jun 2006 16:24:49
.."it's not what she meant and she wouldn't agree with your
suggestion that harm minimisation equates to "marketing addiction"...

You certainly seem to have a unique insight into the speaker's intent. If not 'marketing', what is the word for encouraging the use of a substance by promising a safe drug environment? And what conflict 'of interest is there in taking a profit from that event? Crystal has unique pharmacological properties that preclude safe usage,' 'harm minimisation' with crystal is just bullshit.

I don't know if you read this above, but compare our drug-supported raves to that of the US community: "2005's International Male Leather (IML) event in Chicago was billed as a crystal zero-tolerence event, with tweakers told to STAY HOME! We have no use for crystal meth at any of our functions, and warned in advance that they would be handed over to the police. IML proved how easy and effective such an approach can be, and in San Diego last summer, gay bar and club owners met to discuss establishing a similar policy towards meth use in their premises."

I do not believe there should be any tolerance for crystal use in our community. Propping up addicts implies acceptance and encourages others, and anyway, any drug counsellor will tell you that once you are not there to prop them up, they will just fall down. HARD.

The queer politic has always been one of freedoms, permissiveness and pluralism and I love all of that. But this drug is ugly and is destroying lives. We have the intelligence, we have the community pride, we should have the guts to say we are a zero crystal tolerance community.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Canadian AIDS Society: "Is there a link between crystal meth and HIV? Yes"
Is there a link between crystal meth and HIV?
Yes. One of the biggest health risk from using crystal meth is the increased chance of HIV infection through unprotected and uninhibited sex while under the influence. Crystal meth increases the sex drive and enhances the sexual experience, and also increases euphoria and reduces inhibitions. The liberating feeling that comes with crystal meth use means that safer sex is often discarded while higher risk sexual activity increases greatly.

Are there any other health risks associated with crystal meth?
Yes. Along with an increased chance of HIV infection, there is also a risk of getting other sexually transmitted diseases (syphilis, gonorrhea, hepatitis A and B, herpes, chlamydia, and intestinal parasites such as Cryptosporidium) through unprotected sex while under the influence.

In addition, some other blood-borne infectious diseases can be transmitted by using crystal meth, depending on how it is consumed. When smoking, pipes can get hot and cause damage and bleeding to someone’s lips. If one shares a pipe, there is a chance that a small amount of blood from an infected person can remain on the pipe, and get onto someone else’s lips. The blood can get in contact with a small cut or sore on the lips, providing an opportunity for the transmission of hepatitis C. Similarly, the lining inside the nose can bleed onto a straw used for snorting. There is a chance that a small amount of blood from an infected person can remain on the straw. If one shares a straw to snort meth, that blood can find its way into the nose of another person and transmit hepatitis C. Hepatitis C. Unlike the HIV virus, the Hepatitis C virus survives well in dried blood exposed to air, therefore increasing the risk of transmission when sharing drug paraphernalia. Hepatitis C causes damage to the liver and is very difficult to treat. It is a major cause of cirrhosis of the liver, liver failure and liver cancer.

(Extracted from "Fact Sheet: Crystal Meth and HIV"
http://www.cdnaids.ca/web/backgrnd.nsf/Pages/2FAEFB4BAAA7D73A85256E9A00500E15
anon - Replies: add


All of these factors can contribute to a faster progression of HIV disease.
Because of its potent effect on stamina and sex drive, the drug has become popular with gay and bisexual men who attend dance clubs and sex parties. Rituals of multipartner barebacking have been developed around crystal meth. Crystal meth is often used with ketamine (known as Special K), a drug which loosens the sphincter, and with Viagra to overcome what is known as “crystal dick”, or impotence that often accompanies the use of crystal meth.

For a few decades now, men who have sex with men have been inundated with messages of safer sex, and there appears to be “condom fatigue” within that community. In addition, today’s gay and bisexual men in the 20s and 30s have not witnessed their friends and acquaintances’ frequent deaths from AIDS-related illnesses as in AIDS’ early days, and may not feel that it is a serious threat. These factors combined with deeper issues of built-up shame, insecurity, loneliness and alienation render them particularly vulnerable to drugs such as crystal meth.

Men who are HIV positive are drawn to crystal meth as it helps them overcome fatigue, a low libido and depression, and gives them a sense of feeling desirable. For people who are HIV positive, using crystal meth may decrease adherence to HIV medications. Interruptions in medication can provide an opportunity for the virus to become resistant to medication. The virus then becomes “treatment-resistant”, and the spread of such a potent virus can lead to serious public health consequences. As crystal meth also results in loss of appetite, users often skip meals. This can lead to vitamin depletion and weight loss. Sleep is also affected. All of these factors can contribute to a faster progression of HIV disease.

(Also extracted from Canadian AIDS Society "Fact Sheet: Crystal Meth and HIV") http://www.cdnaids.ca/web/backgrnd.nsf/Pages/2FAEFB4BAAA7D73A85256E9A00500E15
anon - Replies: add


That's enough of the long quotes from various sites about Meth for the moment.
Panther Confirmed - Replies: add
Crystal Meth, HIV and the Gay Community: An Epidemic Within an Epidemic By Jean Malpas October 2004
Art by John McRae.
Tom, a 24 year-old white gay man from the south, recently came out to his family after relocating to New York to attend graduate school. Although he was excited about this step forward in terms of his academic and personal life, he soon found himself isolated and lonely, growing disappointed with the gay community. Added to this was the realization that his parents were having difficulty dealing with his coming out and were becoming increasingly distant emotionally. Within a few months, Tom was introduced to crystal by a friend in a dance club and rapidly started using the drug during sex. For him, crystal was synonymous with access to a network of people that he felt connected to. And, although educated about HIV and safer sex, he began having unprotected sex and eventually tested positive for HIV. It was this diagnosis which led him to seek counseling.
In the midst of his guilt, shame and hopelessness, Tom bravely named the meanings of his behaviors. Somehow for him, hanging out with and having sex with young and older, positive and negative guys made it feel that there was a bond between generations. Emotionally disconnected from his family of origin, he found in sex partners and friends a new place to belong. In this new place, he hoped to find New York and its gay community to be were as exciting and friendly as he had hoped them to be. Crystal was simply the price to pay for admission.

(Extracted from "The Body, The Complete HIV/AIDS Resource)
http://www.thebody.com/bp/oct04/crystal_meth.html

http://www.thebody.com/bp/oct04/crystal_meth.html
last one 4 now - Replies: add


Re:
"Please specify which losses you refer to?"

Money to run Crystal Users anonymous. Money to print "if you can use crystal, you can use a condom".

"If you're saying prevention campaigns are a waste of resources why not scrub HIV prevention education campaigns and the costly bodies funded to run them?"

Nope. not saying prevention campaigns are a waste of money. I'm saying that money spent on PEOPLE WHO WON"T LISTEN TO REASONABLE ADVICE is a waste of money.

A simple "Crystal use will ruin your life - so stay away from it" campaign should suffice in stopping reasonable people from using crystal. Those who choose to use crystal should be left to their own devices. why should we try and save them when they don't want to save themselves and don't listen to reasonable messages that are well researched and documented.

have a chat on gaydar and see how many "wired" people are on chat late at night. they don't care about anyone - not even themselves, so why should we care about them?

money spent on them is actually money taken away from other people who might actually put that spent money to good use. it's just a question of putting the money where there will be results.
- Replies: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, add


"The only reference to crystal at my local NGO - apart from instructions on how to consume it - is the refusal to acknowledge any "causal links" between that drug and HIV transmission"

Your local NGO doesn't refuse to acknowledge any "causal link " between drugs and HIV. You've previously cited social researchers (who don't work for your local NGO) who have questioned whether crystal is the sole problem in terms of HIV infections but none I've seen have disputed the fact that disinhibitory drugs do have a part to play in increasing risk. The debate is around the extent to which this occurs.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Money to run Crystal Users anonymous."

Untterly FALSE. Crystal Meth Anonymous is a 12 step recovery programme. I know from many years of facilitating 12 step recovery programmes that each fellowship (and each meeting) is fully self-supporting in accordance with the fellowships; 12 traditions. All groups are autonomous and self-supporting by their own members' contributions
anon - Replies: add


Re:
'Money to print "if you can use crystal, you can use a condom".'

I agree that that's money wasted, as does just about every other AIDS org around the developed world: Crystal abuse requires deterrent campaigns - when will people learn?

'A simple "Crystal use will ruin your life - so stay away from it" campaign should suffice in stopping reasonable people from using crystal.'

So just where is any campaign saying that?

'money spent on them is actually money taken away from other people who might actually put that spent money to good use.'

You mean non-HIV issues of the moment that titilate an elite handful of out of touch denialists?
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
"Nope. not saying prevention campaigns are a waste of money. I'm saying that money spent on PEOPLE WHO WON"T LISTEN TO REASONABLE ADVICE is a waste of money."

Perhaps instead of waiting until the whole community is addicted to something - and therefore are not CAPABLE of listening to prevention advice after the horse has already bolted - someone ought to be a little more on the ball.
- Replies: add


Re:
"The debate is around the extent to which this occurs."

Perhaps you've overlooked the pages of data on here showing that crystal meth addiction is a gay EPIDEMIC and that it affects the health of both HIV- and HIV+ users.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Money to run Crystal Users anonymous..."
the 4th tradition of all 12 step programmes, "Each group should be autonomous ..." means that they never accept money from outside sources, they help themselves. It seems a little disingenuous for you to demean the unbelievable struggles of guys who get to together just to help each other get well. I guess the 4th tradition answers righteous critics who might think that spending money on helping others to escape the hell of addiction is a waste. Far better spend the money on campaigns that fly in the face of learned experience all over the world, 'safe-drug' parties and the cocktail networks of our hapless bureaucracies.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
"not saying prevention campaigns are a waste of money. I'm saying that money spent on PEOPLE WHO WON"T LISTEN TO REASONABLE ADVICE is a waste of money. Those who choose to use crystal should be left to their own devices. why should we try and save them when they don't want to save themselves and don't listen to reasonable messages that are well researched and documented."

I think you';ve got your sense of priorities a tad confused. People already observing HIV prevention data are clearly NOT needing to be targeted. It's those in risk categories not even addressed by NGOs that are being ignoredin campagns (crystal users, non-gay idnetifying MSM etc etc)who NEED campaign expenditure.

"have a chat on gaydar and see how many "wired" people are on chat late at night. they don't care about anyone - not even themselves, so why should we care about them?"

What kind of a generalisation is that? ALL crystal users don't care about themselves? That's akin to saying ALL HIV+ people are careless for seroconverting.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
'A simple "Crystal use will ruin your life - so stay away from it" campaign should suffice in stopping reasonable people from using crystal.'

From what sort of logic does that come? Did a simple "always use a condom" suffice in stopping reasonable people catching HIV?
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
"A simple "Crystal use will ruin your life - so stay away from it" campaign should suffice in stopping reasonable..."

addiction has nothing to do with 'reason'...

" people from using crystal. Those who choose..."

addiction is not a choice, it is a disease...

" to use crystal should be left to their own devices. why should we try and save them when they don't want to..."

addicts don't WANT to use, they WANT to stop, they have uncontrollable compulsions. That is what addiction is. If you think it's all so simple, try using your willpower next time you have diarrhea.

"save themselves and don't listen to reasonable messages that are well researched and documented..."

and that's just the problem, all the sydney campaigns ignore all the well researched documentation.

"why should we care about them?.."

well, obviously you don't, but that is what community used to mean - that we cared about each other.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add


Re:
'not saying prevention campaigns are a waste of money. I'm saying that money spent on PEOPLE WHO WON"T LISTEN TO REASONABLE ADVICE is a waste of money. A simple "Crystal use will ruin your life - so stay away from it" campaign should suffice in stopping reasonable people from using crystal. Those who choose to use crystal should be left to their own devices'

Your concept of addiction is in serious need of address. How can you expect those caught in the grips of an addiction worse than heroin to be reasonable?

And surely prevention campaigns are for those not already addicted - just as HIV prevention campaigns are for those not already HIV+.
anon - Replies: add


Re:
" people from using crystal. Those who choose..."

addiction is not a choice, it is a disease...

There have been many accounts on this wall about the addictiveness of crystal - with many posters saying "there is no harm minization possible with crystal".

So the "choice" is to begin using crystal - knowing that addiction to that substance is quite likely. Sure addiction isn't a choice, but taking the addictive drug in the first place IS.

and another poster has said:
"Did a simple "always use a condom" suffice in stopping reasonable people catching HIV?"

Answer: For the majority of people - it has. The majority of sexually active gay men use condoms for anal sex. Not because they enjoy it, but because it's the most reasonable thing to do in casual sex.
- Replies: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, add


Re:
Not at all. But crystal isn't the only factor at play in Australian seroconversions. It's important to recognise that it is an issue but I think there's a danger in misrepresenting it as the whole problem.
- Replies: 1, 2, add
Re:
"crystal isn't the only factor at play in Australian seroconversions. It's important to recognise that it is an issue but I think there's a danger in misrepresenting it as the whole problem."


Except it's not being represented at all, on any level, as any problem, as long as harm minimisation (only) policy is the most that's being done. Crystal addiction is way up at the top of the list, yet what education is being done to help prevent it?

Answer: NOTHING.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
'So the "choice" is to begin using crystal - knowing that addiction to that substance is quite likely. Sure addiction isn't a choice, but taking the addictive drug in the first place IS.'

Unsafe sex is a choice too, but people have educational campaigns targeted at them as a prevention initiative.
Taking crystal in the first place is a choice which, like unsafe sex, people need EDUCATING about in order to make them aware of the dangers.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
"Did a simple "always use a condom" suffice in stopping reasonable people catching HIV?" Answer: For the majority of people - it has."

This is untrue. It did not take "one simple always use a condom" initiative - someone else on this noard has been arguing that it's taken 25 years of hammering the message home and despite that men are STILL not getting the message, because the ads are both stale and uncreative, and because a huge proportion of our MSM population are not targeted because they don't live in the ghetto and don't identify as ghetto queens.

If you think HIV is over, look again.

If you think it's still here, then admit that efforts to prevent it continuing its spread are unsuccessfull and that someone is doing a lousy job!
anon - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Not at all. But crystal isn't the only factor at play in Australian seroconversions. It's important to recognise that it is an issue but I think there's a danger in misrepresenting it as the whole problem."

Circumlocution was a tactic used by another old queen, Elizabeth 1 of England. I'm surprised uni teaches that tired old subject in this millenium. My new nickname 4 u is Angie. Remember that helen Reddie song "Angie Baby"? (actually you're probably 2 young). "Living in a world of make believe.....well, maybe, Aaaaangie baby..."
- Replies: add


Re:
"Answer: For the majority of people - it has. The majority of sexually active gay men use condoms for anal sex."

No. See the majority of people always did avoid contracting HIV - so that's a redundant statement. It's the ones likely to catch it that AIDS educators are paid to address.
- Replies: add


Re:
A simple "Crystal use will ruin your life - so stay away from it" campaign should suffice in stopping reasonable people from using crystal. Those who choose to use crystal should be left to their own devices. why should we try and save them when they don't want to save themselves and don't listen to reasonable messages that are well researched and documented.

Which would you rather spend:

A few dollars out of your overall tax bill fixing up the problem (yeah, like that'll happen), or $2,500 every year replacing your VCR, TV, and repairing the damage done getting in to steal these items?
The Professor Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


Re:
'So the "choice" is to begin using crystal - knowing that addiction to that substance is quite likely. Sure addiction isn't a choice, but taking the addictive drug in the first place IS.'

So you obviously don't see any reason to alert potential crystal players that it, for example:

“...is associated with numerous serious physical problems. The drug can cause rapid heart rate, increase blood pressure and do damage to the small blood vessels in the brain – which can lead to stroke. Chronic use of the drug can result in inflammation of the heart lining. Overdoses can cause hyperthermia (elevated body temperature), convulsions and death...And if that’s not enough, individuals who use crystal meth also may have episodes of violent behaviour, paranoia, anxiety, confusion and insomnia. The drug can produce psychotic symptoms that persist for months or years after an individual has stopped using the drug...
Professionals tell us that you may use crystal meth once and get away with it – use it the second time, and you’re hooked."

Or hadn't that occured to you?
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
Well if we are going to look at the dollars involved Prof., Id say it's more a matter of directing the millions already allocated to certain agencies to better effect vs. the cost of long term hospitalization, institutionalisation and caring for hundreds of poor souls lost in permanent psychosis.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
you are missing the point, Mr. Its a point made on this wall over and over. First, there is tremendous peer pressure, especially for younger gays who want to belong. Crystal will make a 'great party' bcos, let's face it, if u r shitfaced enough, you'd have a good time in an abbattoir. When guys say 'that was the best party ever', they mean 'I had great drugs'. Dance parties are actually about as exciting as a Westfield shopping mall without them. And more and more guys are trying crystal. Added to this, the drug angels guarantee to be there to take care of you, so the 'choice' becomes almost irresistable. This is the culture that has been generated. Don't make moral judgements about a guy's willpower, stand up to this culture instead.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
'So the "choice" is to begin using crystal - knowing that addiction to that substance is quite likely. Sure addiction isn't a choice, but taking the addictive drug in the first place IS.'

Well I'm sure this type of downplaying won't alet anyone to stay away from it:

"Crystal has received considerable attention in the Sydney gay community and mainstream press since around 1998 and more recently become widely available. Similar use and attention of crystal has been experienced on the West Coast of the United States. In both sites much of this discussion has been alarmist and of doubtful informative value. Some have argued that crystal is extremely dangerous, addictive, neurologically toxic and leads to behaviours such as unsafe sex and injecting. Others have argued that Australian gay men are competent party drug users who have effectively managed and reduced drug related harm over a number of years. Recreational drug use is considered normal in the context of urban gay culture and crystal, according to this view, is like other party drugs and therefore gay men will develop ways of managing its effects."

Sean Slavin, Australian Federation of AIDS Organisations website http://www.afao.org.au/view_articles.asp?pxa=ve&pxs=103&pxsc=127&pxsgc=138&id=528

(dated June to August 2004 -that's TWO YEARS old and no updates).

However, after calling the media alarmists and claiming gay men will manage, the author goes on to contradict himself slightly:

"While crystal use did form part of the context for sexual risk taking among some participants, over emphasising this aspect obscures a range of more acute harms. For some, crystal use came to dominate and ultimately disrupt their lives in significant ways. One participant's life became quite chaotic and he lost his job because he consistently failed to arrive for work or used crystal while at work. He became temporarily homeless, highly psychologically distressed, often depressed and paranoid. A number of participants lost relationships, got into debt and experienced ongoing poor health. All participants described coming down from crystal as very hard. They reported feeling tired, moody, and sometimes severely depressed for several days after using. A number of larger social effects may also be related to crystal. For participants in this research it was sometimes implicated in stressing or destroying friendships and social networks."

And then the author's recommendations (remember this was two years ago - NOTHING has been done despite these words):

"Efforts to reduce drug related harm in relation to crystal use among gay men in Australia have either been non specific (such as through the general promotion of clean needle use and safe sex) or educationally dubious, as through the promulgation of alarmist or inaccurate messages. A more sophisticated and comprehensive harm reduction approach needs to be developed in relation to crystal that takes account of the fact that its use is associated with a number of risky factors including, injecting, unprotected sex, HIV, and HCV. Harm reduction responses should also take account of the drug's social and psychological effects, taking into account the specificity of this drug and its effects as well as the contexts in which it is used. An effective precedent has been set in the gay community's response to GHB. There is currently a dearth of services or advice in Australia for gay men wishing to control their methamphetamine use.
For users who do not wish to abstain completely there should be forms of health promotion that build on their existing strategies and practices for reducing harm, but also brave enough to intervene when those strategies are ineffective. The sense of invulnerability that crystal produces in many users can lead to complex forms of denial. Some in the gay community fear that emphasising the dangers of crystal will undermine their credibility to speak about illicit drugs from a harm reduction perspective. The ability, however, to discern between drugs and make judgments about their particular risks is a key feature of socially embedded risk reduction strategies. Those involved in gay and lesbian health promotion should take the lead in providing a range of education and service responses that start to manage this drug at a community level, which has proved, for many, so difficult to manage at an individual level. It is important for health professionals and educators to rethink and better understand that particular patterns of use can have both positive and negative effects and are fluid in these areas."

But to conclude he writes:
"consistent with the principles of harm reduction, we should think through a range of responses that avoid polarizing discussions about particular kinds of drug use as either entirely manageable or utterly uncontrollable and detrimental"

Well, the harm reduction hasn't been developed to any useful level has it?
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
SOME people aren't getting the message.

But MOST people are.

that's the difference. the messages that gay men are getting are working for the majority of people. it's just that persistent minority that they aren't working for - and why? not because the message isn't clear, but because they have a "it can't happen to me"/"i can control this drug"/"i'm a good driver" mentality.

face it - some people jsut can't be reached no matter how hard people try.

And this drug we are talking about is supposedly highly addictive - a fact that most people know. so why should the majority keep on having to fork over lots of $$$ for a small group of people who are unreachable?

The majority of gay men have safe sex. And that works in keeping them HIV negative. they aren't negative by chance - only by their conscience efforts to practise safe sex. Someone should stand up and applaud them for making personal sacrifices that benefit the whole of the community.
- Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Professionals tell us that you may use crystal meth once and get away with it – use it the second time, and you’re hooked."


So why are people still stupid enough to try it a second time?
- Replies: 1, add


“...is associated with numerous serious physical problems. The drug can cause rapid heart rate, increase blood pressure and do damage to the small blood vessels in the brain – which can lead to stroke. Chronic use of the drug can result in inflammation of the heart lining. Overdoses can cause hyperthermia (elevated body temperature), convulsions and death...And if that’s not enough, individuals who use crystal meth also may have episodes of violent behaviour, paranoia, anxiety, confusion and insomnia. The drug can produce psychotic symptoms that persist for months or years after an individual has stopped using the drug...

Boring old speed does all of these things too. Methinks you are all a little obsessed here.

Professionals tell us that you may use crystal meth once and get away with it – use it the second time, and you’re hooked."

Well, I am the exception that proves the rule!
Xtallographer - Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


This campaign in the USA is exactly what we need in Sydney.
There's a poster campaign in Manhatten with the simple buzz line: "Just say no: Crystal meth has been linked with unsafe sex." On the poster itself is a face pic of a wired(ish) looking guy, over which is stamped: "Crystal Mess." Smaller incidental print running across it reads: "BUZZ KILLER. He's tweaking. His heart is racing, he's grinding his teeth, he's talking really fast and not making much sense. He thinks he's sexy and popular. And he's bumped up his risk of getting HIV by 400%." Then to conclude: "Don't mess with crystal.For help visit crystalmess.com"

"This message brought to you by Dept of Public Health HIV Prevention Programme"

---------------------------------

It looks effective. I came accross it while googling "crystal meth HIV" which brings up a result figure of 464,000 items.

Attatched to a Newsweek article "Party, Play and Pay" ( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6999699/site/newsweek ) from which I extracted to following 4 key paragraphs:

"In a study of 1,600 men who have had sex with men, conducted by the L.A. County public-health agency in 2003-04, 13 percent said they'd used meth in the previous 12 months; those respondents were twice as likely to report having had unprotected sex, and four times as likely to report being HIV-positive. And as many as three quarters of new patients diagnosed with HIV by counselors at Callen-Lorde Community Health Center in New York each month say crystal meth played a role in getting them there.

Why are so many gay men tempted to play this game of Russian roulette? Hans Kindt did it for the sense of belonging—and for the sex. Arriving in San Francisco in 1994, Kindt, then 34, was just coming to terms with his homosexuality. "I had no role models. I had to find my own way. I really didn't know anything. So I asked a friend of mine, 'How do you meet guys?' He told me the way to get into anybody's pants is to give them a hit of speed." But the pleasure came with a steep price. Within a year, Kindt had lost his job, he was homeless and he was HIV-positive. "Had there been a candid, clear, honest discussion about the drug and its dangers—not the hysteria we are prone to in this country—then I think I would have listened," says Kindt, now sober and 45.

Many agree that frank discussion is the only way to deal with the problem. Recovering meth addict Peter Staley was so disturbed by the lack of dialogue that he spent $6,000 of his own money to plaster ads on phone booths in New York's gay neighborhoods that read BUY CRYSTAL, GET HIV FREE; the New York city council has since ponied up funds to expand the effort. Authorities in San Francisco launched a media campaign against "crystal mess," even plastering the ads on coasters at gay bars. And the Los Angeles Gay & Lesbian Center has formed support groups where men can learn ways to deal with self-esteem and relationship issues without turning to crystal meth.

Step into a Crystal Meth Anonymous meeting—they now rival AA in attendance in many gay neighborhoods—and you'll hear the same story over and over. John, a graying fortysomething New Yorker who earns a six-figure salary in finance, started using the drug as a way to meet guys. At first, John would use on the occasional Friday night. Then it became every Friday. Then every Friday and Saturday. Eventually, crystal took up the better part of his week. Decimated by the endless partying, he would crawl into the bathroom at his office and curl up around the toilet, still wearing his business suit, to steal an hour of sleep. "You get tunnel vision," John says. "Your world gets smaller until it's just you, a pipe and the Internet." And, for a growing number of users, HIV."

(Extracted from Feb. 28 issue, Newsweek Inc.,By David J. Jefferson With Karen Breslau, Jonathan Darman, Sarah Childress, Vanessa Juarez And Kathryn Williams

-------------------------------------------

OK that wasn't very hard, how come I can do that and a fully funded NGO set up to do this stuff can't (or won't)?
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"so why should the majority keep on having to fork over lots of $$$ for a small group of people who are unreachable?" The Commonwealth Government spent $25 million last year on the quit smoking campaigns. Why should we waste $25 million? Evidence clearly shows that a strategic national approach to encouraging and assisting people to quit smoking saved thousands of Australian lives in '05. But stuff them, eh, we should have just let them die. It was their choice. And they were stupid. They shouldn't have used a drug of addiction in the first place...'face it - some people jsut can't be reached no matter how hard people try.'

then again, some can.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
Psychosis is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state in which thought and perception are severely impaired. Persons experiencing a psychotic episode may hold delusional beliefs, exhibit disorganized thinking, have a lack of insight into the unusual or bizarre nature of such behavior, etc. A psychotic episode is often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality". Of course none of these descriptions apply to a regular crystal user.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
It's not very hard to endlessly copy and paste, I agree :) But the point you appear to be making - just say no to drugs - isn't one that is going to resonate powerfully anytime soon. No-one is denying that there's a significant problem in this area but not every one who uses drugs is an addict and not every one who seroconverts is on Crystal.

The US has been awash in "just say no" messages and abstinence-based prevention for years and it has a seroprevalence rate well in excess of Australia's with our wicked old government-funded needle and syringe exchange programs and focus on harm reduction.
- Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Re:
'that's the difference. the messages that gay men are getting are working for the majority of people. it's just that persistent minority that they aren't working for - and why? not because the message isn't clear, but because they have a "it can't happen to me"/"i can control this drug"/"i'm a good driver" mentality.'

That's a cop out to cover your ass. Firstly, you have no evidence that "the messages that gay men are getting are working for the majority of people". In fact you've no evidence that anyone's getting any message at all except the four year old outdated one signed by the Prez in November 2002 to cover 2002-2005).

Secondly you have no quantatitive evidenc to back up your claim that "it's just that persistent minority that they aren't working for - and why? not because the message isn't clear, but because they have a "it can't happen to me"/"i can control this drug"/"i'm a good driver" mentality.'"

Thirdly, re you question "so why should the majority keep on having to fork over lots of $$$ for a small group of people who are unreachable?" No $$$ are being spent on anyone right now.

Fourthly, your spurious claim that "The majority of gay men have safe sex. And that works in keeping them HIV negative. they aren't negative by chance - only by their conscience efforts to practise safe sex" is, again, pure speculation: you haven't a clue how many men are practising safe or unsafe sex. HIV does not transmit every time someone has unprotected sex, and many are careless but just lucky, then there are others not yet diagnosed.

But fifth and foremost, as has been so succinctly pointed out, your claim about any majority of any group is a redundant statement - the majority of people on the planet have remained HIV negative and that's not thanks to any org, any education initiative or any other reason than that the majority of people are not in high risk groups.

Gay male crystal meth users in Sydney's gay ghetto are the highest risk group we have and they are not being targeted in any campaigns that educate about the dangers of crystal meth - in fact they were even told "you CAN use a condom when you're on crystal". And all this because of one or two self-centred irresponsible mouthpieces who refuse (in typical addict style, I maight add) to even acknowledge the epidemic proportion of this health proble.

The overseas response has put this city's to shame. Just check out Tweaker.com and their regular and ongoing campaigns http://www.tweaker.org/html/campaigns/campaigns.html

(and that's one of hundreds - where's ours? Get out of denial).
ord guy - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
'Well, I am the exception that proves the rule!'

Or you could be just kidding yourself.
- Replies: add


Re:
'So why are people still stupid enough to try it a second time?'

How are they stupid for trying it a second time when no one's told them the facts?
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Boring old speed does all of these things too"

If you scroll up the wall and read what St Vincents' emergency services director has to say you'll find you are wrong. Crystal casualties makes adverse effects of ordinary speed look like a teddy bear's picnic.

"Methinks you are all a little obsessed here."

Methinks you protesteth too much (first signs of denial).
anon - Replies: add


Re:
'The US has been awash in "just say no" messages and abstinence-based prevention for years and it has a seroprevalence rate well in excess of Australia's with our wicked old government-funded needle and syringe exchange programs and focus on harm reduction.'

The US has a vast network of help and support for crystal addicts PLUS a vast network of campaign initiatives to PREVENT further addictions (which would in turn lead to MORE HIV seroconversions).

Sydney has neither - and therefore quite feasably an [unaddressed] addiction prevalence rate well in excess of the theirs.

Can you quote statistics to show Sydney's (sorry, "the world's only") harm reduction position (that means "doing nothing") delivers or contributes to better, less addictively affected gay men's mental and physical health (I mean, the NGO is a GLBTQ health body generally, rather than serospecific in the nature of its raison d'etre - despite its misleading title)?

If so please quote away.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
'The US has been awash in "just say no" messages and abstinence-based prevention for years and it has a seroprevalence rate well in excess of Australia's with our wicked old government-funded needle and syringe exchange programs and focus on harm reduction.'

Except no harm is being reduced.
- Replies: add


OK, see Australia has taken an abstinence position re smoking...
...and guess what? Yup. Smoking is going down. Meanwhile, someone is clinging to a harm reduction position re crystal meth abuse...and guess what? Yup, addiction rates are right up - and HIV rates continue.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add
Re:
The Tweaker.com site is most interesting - and is loaded with harm minimisation tips!
Xtallographer - Replies: 1, add
www.tweaker.org
Re:
'It's not very hard to endlessly copy and paste, I agree'

Selecting material (from a results load of 464,000) is pin the donkey, but readiing it first is not only time consuming, it requires thought - how much time and thought have you give the topic?

'The US has been awash in "just say no" messages and abstinence-based prevention for years and it has a seroprevalence rate well in excess of Australia's with our wicked old government-funded needle and syringe exchange programs and focus on harm reduction.'

The American programmes are far from absatinence only focussed. The gay-base campaign bodies in New York and San Francisco are comprehensive in approach and iclude harm reduction as well as education on the dangers of using. Would you like more copy and paste to prove this or are you going to pull your finger out at some point to see for yourself?

Meanwhile, in the UK, national news headlines announce crystal meth's category change to class "A". ('LONDON -[Reuters] - Crystal meth, an addictive form of amphetamine used on the fringes of the gay nightclub scene, is to be ranked with heroin in the country's most dangerous group of illegal drugs, the government said on Wednesday.' http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-06-14T134209Z_01_FOR449246_RTRUKOC_0_UK-CRIME-DRUGS.xml)

The British gay campaigns are similarly adopting combined prevention educational strategies and harm minimisation, strengthening the credibility of the US gay prevention model.

Seems our GLBTQ community is represented as a global backwater with regards to crystal meth addiction prevention campaigns.
open your eyes - Replies: add


Drugscope: Charity welcomes reclassification of crystal meth
Drugscope: Charity welcomes reclassification of crystal meths Wednesday, 14 Jun 2006 12:34

Leading drugs charity DrugScope has welcomed news that crystal meth (methamphetamine) is to be upgraded from a Class B to a Class A drug.

Responding to today's announcement by Drugs Minister Vernon Coaker, DrugScope Chief Executive Martin Barnes said:

"Reclassifying crystal meth is a sensible precautionary measure. Use of the drug in the UK is low and there is no evidence that it is increasing, but international evidence shows that the drug can cause serious health and social harms. Moving crystal meth to Class A enables the police to direct resources towards monitoring its production and supply, and it can be included in drug tests for people charge with drug related offences.

Whilst we support reclassification as a sensible pre-emptive move, suggestions that we may be on the verge of a cystal meth 'epidemic' would be without foundation and alarmist. It is important to enable the police to focus on tackling the drug and to ensure people are made aware of the harm it can cause."

· DrugScope is the UK's leading centre of expertise on drugs. Our aim is to inform policy and reduce drug-related risk. We provide quality information, promote effective responses to drug taking, undertake research at local, national and international level, advise on policy-making, encourage informed debate and speak for our member bodies working on the ground.

(From politics.co.uk) http://www.politics.co.uk/press-releases/domestic-policy/drugs/drugs/drugscope-charity-welcomes-reclassification-crystal-meths-$442511.htm
anon - Replies: add


Re:
"The Tweaker.com site is most interesting - and is loaded with harm minimisation tips!"

Yes, that'a the point I was making. Harm minimisation is not a bad thing IN ITS PROPER CONTEXT: as an adjunct to the main message that crystal is dangerous, addictive, unhealthy, etc. My problem with it is that that is ALL that's covered in terms of present community education (and even the harm minimisation coverage itself is needle-in-haytack stuff to find). Now put this in context with other gay capitals and we are way behind AND our crystal damage is arguably higher - and of course, with it being linked to HIV, that is a significant factor in addressing continuing transmission (if it were actually being addressed, although it doesn't look too much like that to me).
ord guy - Replies: add


Perspective in the harm reduction v abstinence messages should be based on size of each using group
Harm reduction is for those who can't say no, for use before they reach detox. Therefore their harm reduction campaign inititatives can be considered as small as the group isteslf - to make harm reduction the main picture is to admit that this is the larger of two crystal groups.

Prevention is for those gays who haven't reached that stage (yet). It therefore makes sense to put the emphasis on prevention, as the majority of people are not (yet) addicts, though that pile has been ballooning, as confirmed by St Vincents.
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"'So why are people still stupid enough to try it a second time?'
How are they stupid for trying it a second time when no one's told them the facts?
clean 4 10 - Wed 14 Jun 2006 22:29:54"


Well if you actually read what was said further up the wall:

"A simple "Crystal use will ruin your life - so stay away from it" campaign should suffice"

how is that not making it clear that people should stay away from crystal? isn't that enough? or do you have to actually interview every single person in the NSW to let them personally know that crystal "will ruin your life"?
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
"It therefore makes sense to put the emphasis on prevention, as the majority of people are not (yet) addicts"


Isn't that what is being said on this wall by so many people?

Put the $$$ in where it will have the most effect. ie. safe sex messages for people who will listen. "stay away from crystal" messages for people who will actually stay away from crystal.

It's so much easier (and cheaper) to spend money on prevention than it is to dealing with a problem once it's entrenched. (ie. padded cells for ice queens).
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Firstly, you have no evidence that "the messages that gay men are getting are working for the majority of people". In fact you've no evidence that anyone's getting any message at all"

"Fourthly, your spurious claim that "The majority of gay men have safe sex. And that works in keeping them HIV negative. they aren't negative by chance - only by their conscience efforts to practise safe sex" is, again, pure speculation: you haven't a clue how many men are practising safe or unsafe sex. HIV does not transmit every time someone has unprotected sex, and many are careless but just lucky, then there are others not yet diagnosed."


are you talking rubbish or what?

Time and time again, periodic surveys show that it's only a percentage of gay men (hovers around 20-35%) have had high risk unsafe sex (ie. anal sex without a condom with casual partners). The remainder of gay men report only having had SAFE sex (ie. wearing a condom or not having anal sex) with casual partners.

can anyone make it anymore clear than that?

How is that not getting the safe sex message?

The majority of gay men have safe sex. No if's or buts about it. Safe sex is and has been the norm for the majority of gay men for the past 20 years.

Now do you get that message?
- Replies: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, add


Re:
"It's so much easier (and cheaper) to spend money on prevention than it is to dealing with a problem once it's entrenched. (ie. padded cells for ice queens)."

Totally agree. Sowhere are the "prevention" campaigns?

PS Are you using psychic powers or guesswork to assess which 'safe sex messages for people who will listen. "stay away from crystal" messages for people who will actually stay away from crystal.'

I mean, you do understand that the very concept: prevention, MEANS educating people about dangers, not harm reduction instructions for those you never gave any message to in the first place.

Let me spell it out for you: Harm reduction data displayed on the internet does NOT, repeat NOT pass off as "drug addiction prevention education".
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
LOL, the sarcasm on this wall makes me laugh sometimes. Well, first may I suggest you take a deep breath before you bust a spleen. Second, consider that even if there is a "Crystal use will ruin your life - so stay away from it" campaign it obviously does not suffice. We've discussed the enormous pressure that we are under to use already. Wish it were that easy. Wish it were also so easy to say, "Don't smoke, it will kill you." Unfortunately it takes a bit more thought and energy than that.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add
Re:
"The majority of gay men have safe sex. No if's or buts about it. Safe sex is and has been the norm for the majority of gay men for the past 20 years."

Then why are millions of $$$ being wasted on AIDS councils?
anon - Replies: add


Re:
f research is to be believed, less than half of the gay men in relationships in Sydney are monogamous. The majority are in open relationships, with most having rules about what can and can’t be done outside the relationship. In the last HIM survey, the proportion of men in regular relationships has remained fairly consistent at about 60-65% of the total sample. There seems to be a fairly high bias of couples more inclined to do these surveys than single men. I think it needs to be acknowledged that many that practice UAI don't want to talk or tell, think it's nobody's business, may be in denial or the closet, or even hold false assumptions that pulling out before coming doesn't constitute unsafe sex. And this is a sample from venues on the scene, once again, the great mythical land "Outside the Ghetto' is ignored. The February 2005 sample consisted of 2230 men.

It would be interesting to do a comparable survey of men's preferences when it comes to safe sex of all the 1000's of online profiles, like on gaydar. I suspect that under cover of internet anonymity, there'd a be a much higher percentage of "safer sex: needs discussion, sometimes, or never" men.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
'are you talking rubbish or what? Time and time again, periodic surveys show that it's only a percentage of gay men (hovers around 20-35%) have had high risk unsafe sex (ie. anal sex without a condom with casual partners). The remainder of gay men report only having had SAFE sex (ie. wearing a condom or not having anal sex) with casual partners. can anyone make it anymore clear than that? How is that not getting the safe sex message? The majority of gay men have safe sex. No if's or buts about it. Safe sex is and has been the norm for the majority of gay men for the past 20 years. Now do you get that message?'

You are dodging round his point that the majority have not been surveyed. And the one about the untested people who may showpoz in a decade or more. Safe ses WAS the norm 20years ago but is not since the emergence of successful combination HAART.

You yourself scoffed at the notion that every single gay man might be sat down and interviewed about whether he's "got the campaign message(s)".

So these didi Darlo surveys don't paint a complete picture at all. Remember too that many not being safe, even if surveyed, may not admit to it.

But it is irrelelvant that the majority are safe, it's the high risk profile gays NOT being safe who need campaigning to, and seeing as they could be anywhere and everywhere I thinka lot more campagning, across a much wider field needs doing. If not then what are these places there for, there own enjoyment?
hope you'll see eventually - Replies: add


Re:
"The majority of gay men have safe sex. No if's or buts about it. Safe sex is and has been the norm for the majority of gay men for the past 20 years."

Are you kiddig yourself or what? Not according to the cult of Barebacking which has emerged and exploded in recent years. There are whole websites devoted to it, clubs for it, in fact many on Gaydar will only BB. If you try and enter a cubicle at the fuck clubs with a condom in your hand you get shoved out of the door quick smart. What planet are you on? There has never been so much unsafe sex in the history of HIV as there is going on today.

Then there's "Bug Chasing" and all the zillions of clubs and sites devoted to that, indeed masses flocking to the dangers of seroconversion and the risk factors, the gambling, it's a lifestyle, an addiction, a preversion and it's growing, just google if you don't believe me.

Anecdotal evidence will soundly back this up, so if you haven't been getting out much just go for it and talk to a few people, expand your horizons and learn about current sexual habits. It's obvious that anecdotal evidenc with be more sound on the subject of barebacking because there's so much more anecdotal evidence than study data - let's face it you can't interview every queer in the state can you?
over here on this planet darl - Replies: 1, add


Others are not sure what to do either
"I'm not sure how to "fix" the G problem that Sydney has"
"The main issue with G and overdosing is that in some areas of our community, it's still seen as cool when someone does drop. All too often I've overheard conversations about "the time you dropped - god that was so cool/funny/outrageous/etc etc etc".

Quoting from "The G Debate" currently underway on the Party Grafitti Wall Thu 15 Jun 2006 14:24:52

I'd say there's more than ample anecdotal evidence on PB graffiti wall alone to demonstrate the culture of unsafe behavours in our community that is becoming more and more acceptable - yet frightening and I'd say the situation is not being addressed by the appropriate bodies responsible for promoting community health.
- Replies: add


Re:
"Time and time again, periodic surveys show that it's only a percentage of gay men (hovers around 20-35%) have had high risk unsafe sex (ie. anal sex without a condom with casual partners). The remainder of gay men report only having had SAFE sex (ie. wearing a condom or not having anal sex) with casual partners."

The past 20 years is not one static sexual era, things have changed significantly in very recent years and MSM are no longer so "paranoid" of catching something that's not likely to kill them. We've already established that.

And the problems with periodic surbeys is that sampling choices affect results, as is the case in the recent two differing public opinion polls we've seen compete in the mainstream media concerning views on same-sex relationship recognition. The Newspoll survey, which used proper cross-sectional samples, found that a majority of Australians supported the notion of legally recognised same-sex relationships. Whereas others, like todays NineMSM online/Today Show viewers' poll, showed a majority opposed legal recognition of same sex relationships. The latter clearly had a self-appointing response sample of conservative opinionists.

The new wave of unsafe sex on our scene is not something you can just pretend doesn't exist by quoting from inadequately sized sample surveys that only look at Gay Sydney.

Of course, it would suit some if it could be made to look that way :-)
ord guy - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
'There's nothing "controversial" about it'

"As our peak health organisation, ACON has also generated its share of controversy over the years, including accusations of a slow response to crystal meth and claims it neglects those outside the inner city."

THE SSO A-Z GUIDE TO QUEER SYDNEY SSO 820 Thursday June 15 2006 Page 10. Aslo online @ssonet

http://www.ssonet.com.au/display.asp?ArticleID=5454
Hmm? - Replies: add


Re:
"We've discussed the enormous pressure that we are under to use already."


Really? I'm under pressure to use crystal? Wow. And I didn't even know it. Geez, better go out and have a big party weekend then!

But if I live in the burbs am i still supposed to feel the pressure? Am I still counted as being part of the community?

Maybe i shouldn't even be filling out those surveys every year when i venture into the ghetto? And I DEFINITELY don't take notice of those safe sex posters - after all, I'm an ethnic MSM, and naturally HIV can't touch me (even though I might touch it from time to time in my sexual conquests in the heat of passion that I can't control).
How's that for sarcasm - Replies: add


I've seen the light!
We all agree with everything that Pixguy says. Yes we do! He's invariably correct. It's been proven beyond doubt. Oh yes it has! So stop arguing guys...
Pixillater - Replies: 1, add
12 months later
On 30.06.05 2005 Paul Dillon wrote in the Sydney Star Observer:

"Interestingly, when the authors wrote their discussion section for the paper there was no mention of crystal, mainly due to the fact that the drug is rarely seen in the UK.

Could it be that there are other factors than just a drug that are contributing to a rise in high-risk sex?"
http://www.ssonet.com.au/display.asp?ArticleID=4442

12 months later, international news headlines announce to the world that the UK Parliament has today made crystal methamphetamine a class A drug alongside heroin in order to curb its unprecedented toll.

So either Mr Dillon was quite incorrect in saying crystal was unheard of in the UK 12 months ago or, if he was correct, then here is an indication of how rapidly the drug can spread its tentacles of addiction and destruction.

I'd say Sydney should be taking note of this and instead of waiting 12 months acting now on what is already a major problem in our community.
- Replies: add


PIXGUY: You've pointed out the trap!
"I can give up any time I want to", until one actually tries. Even when I did smoke cigarettes, Sunday was abstinence day, and that lasted about three months, eventually I found myself chain smoking while watching TV so I stopped watching TV, then I found myself chain smoking whenever that windoze progress bar came up. You know the ones that take 90% of the time to do the first half and the other 90% to do the second. It was when I did an all night session of editing, and looked at the results of having three PACKETS of cigarettes without having thought about it that it occurred to me, THIS HAS TO STOP.

Thankfully I was able to set my quit date and succeed in putting them down without picking them up aggain well before that set date arrived.

No one is going to solve their addiction problems, until they realize that they have one. My grandfather gave up smoking--25 times a day.
The Professor Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"No one is going to solve their addiction problems, until they realize that they have one."

That's right Prof, it's called being in denial - and there's plenty of that in this discussion.
- Replies: add


Re:
if you've run out of arguments, is this the best you can come up with? There were 75 deaths last year from crystal alone. 73,000 addicted to ice. and all you can do is pissy schoolgirl antics? what community do u belong to?
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
This lovely boy from Queer Planet conscientiously tells us:
"HIV infection rates have increased in several Australian states this year. The majority of new cases are gay men between 35 and 45 years old, according to statistics by various AIDS organisations. It seems some of us are forgetting the safe sex message." By The Single Guy
Posted Wednesday, June 14, 2006 http://www.queerplanet.com.au/moxie/columnists/sitc/15-6-06-2.shtml

I guess someone will be attacking and invalidating him by screaming out in bold print:

"are you talking rubbish or what?

Time and time again, periodic surveys show that it's only a percentage of gay men (hovers around 20-35%) have had high risk unsafe sex (ie. anal sex without a condom with casual partners). The remainder of gay men report only having had SAFE sex (ie. wearing a condom or not having anal sex) with casual partners.

can anyone make it anymore clear than that?

How is that not getting the safe sex message?

The majority of gay men have safe sex. No if's or buts about it. Safe sex is and has been the norm for the majority of gay men for the past 20 years.

Now do you get that message?" - Thu 15 Jun 2006 11:30:39

Just like they did to me on here this morning (one has to wonder at their reasoning) :-)
ord guy - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
"Please specify which losses you refer to?"
Money to run Crystal Users anonymous
---------------------------

If you're going to assert that losses should be cut, please specify how much you are claiming that "Crystal Users Anonymous" costs any organisation?
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add


In reviewing 2 queer doco films on crystal addiction and sex, the author observes:
The fest has two terrific films on a profoundly depressing subject: the horrendous link between our insatiable libidos and an insidious partner named "Tina." Todd Ahlberg's "Meth" is the more seductive of the two. Featuring a half-dozen hyper-attractive men who claim to have been married to their drug habits from anywhere from three to 30 years, Meth's heartbreaking message is that once you're hooked on having sex on crystal methamphetamine, you can stop, but you can probably never recover...

...in "Rock Bottom": Gay Men & Meth Jay Corcoran gives us the Big Apple version of boys lost in the crystal palace. Corcoran tops Ahlberg's cast of hunks in recovery with a full deck of "experts," crusaders (Larry Kramer, hectoring), lover-come-back-to-me confessionals (one bear admits to beating up his boyish squeeze while on crystal) and one beautiful corpse."

from "Extreme makeovers" by David Lamble, Bay Area Reporter, 06/15/2006: LGBT Film Fest documentaries, week one (Vol. 36 / No. 24) http://www.ebar.com/arts/art_article.php?sec=film&article=184
anon - Replies: 1, add


Re:
The problem with periodic surbeys, ord guy, is that they don't support your preferred position, based on your incredible ability to really see what's going on without a shred of empirical evidence to support it.

As you've clearly demonstrated, the real problem is with undiagnosed married MSM who never have sex with their wives, never use condoms with guys, are completely impervious to any safe sex message put about by anyone and all have had HIV unknowingly for about 20 years. How they've all been spared the evils of the Meth epidemic isn't entirely clear but I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten us :)
regular poster - Replies: 1, 2, 3, 4, add


I suppose I shouldn't be too disgusted by such self centred, childish and thoughtless reaction on this wall. After all, I used to be you. 25 years later I'm an HIV positive alcoholic drug addict with four years in recovery. Hopefully I've learned something. I'm also proud enough of myself to have always identified myself on this wall. I don't give much credibility to anonymous posts. They obviously don't have the courage of their convictions.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add
Re:
"As you've clearly demonstrated, the real problem is with undiagnosed married MSM who never have sex with their wives, never use condoms with guys, are completely impervious to any safe sex message put about by anyone and all have had HIV unknowingly for about 20 years. How they've all been spared the evils of the Meth epidemic isn't entirely clear"

of 74,000 acknowledged meth addicts in Australia, over half said they don't do safe sex.
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, 2, add


This poor homeless HIV+ man in the current Sydney Star Observer has been discriminated against
http://www.ssonet.com.au/display.asp?ArticleID=5451
I wonder wher he can turn for support, understanding, compassion and acceptance? Maybe he knows he'll just be told he's a waste of money and won't listen.
anon - Replies: 1, 2, add
Re:
'The problem with periodic surbeys, ord guy, is that they don't support your preferred position, based on your incredible ability to really see what's going on without a shred of empirical evidence to support it.
As you've clearly demonstrated, the real problem is with undiagnosed married MSM who never have sex with their wives, never use condoms with guys, are completely impervious to any safe sex message put about by anyone and all have had HIV unknowingly for about 20 years. How they've all been spared the evils of the Meth epidemic isn't entirely clear but I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten us'

Periodic whats? :-) (I said nothing about any "surbeys").
Nor did I say "the real problem is with undiagnosed married MSM who never have sex with their wives, never use condoms with guys, are completely impervious to any safe sex message put about by anyone and all have had HIV unknowingly for about 20 years."

Wasn't someone on here having a little tizz yesterday about misrepresentation?

So, now that I've been misrepresented, perhaps I'll be allowed to address that.

What I have consistently said are that the place [whose name is unmentionable] has only ever quoted statistics from surveys done using "gay Sydney" interview samples. I have quite rightly pointed out, over and over, that if you only interview gay scene queens you'll only end up with data about gay scene queens. This, of course means that you'll then be able to argue that HIV transmissions do not exist in suburbia or in non-gay identifying MSM, but then, quite frankly, I don't see why it needed bringing to anyone's attention, as my pet goldfish could see my point.

And so, in keeping with this odd tradition is, the current Sydney Star Observer, an advertisement for men who have sex in groups to participate in yet another such exclusive survey. This, too, will show no results of MSM living out of SSO distribution districts (as they won't get the paper to see the ad to respond to participate... (you are following me so far I take it?) and nor will its results show any data about sexual behaviours of men in the SSO distribution perameters who are not out enough or faggy enough to be reading that paper.

This is an example of someone setting up data to make campaign workloads easy for themselves: they can say they only found MSM in the area that paper mostly gets picked up from.

Oh, and I have said, also, that in existing notification data, the person seroconverting's self-chosen sexual identity is not indicated - therefore all transmissions caused by homosexual and bisexual contacts are being assumed to be "gay".

Now, unless you want to quote me (you presumably have heard of copy and paste, as your sarcastic remarks have indicated) as saying what you claim I have in your above misrepresentation of my points, I hope this will be considered closed and you will stand corrected.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"suppose I shouldn't be too disgusted by such self centred, childish and thoughtless reaction on this wall. After all, I used to be you. 25 years later I'm an HIV positive alcoholic drug addict with four years in recovery. Hopefully I've learned something. I'm also proud enough of myself to have always identified myself on this wall. I don't give much credibility to anonymous posts. They obviously don't have the courage of their convictions."

More power to you Pixguy, there ought to be more of your integrity and less of the petty sarcasm B/S on here.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"MSM are no longer so "paranoid" of catching something that's not likely to kill them. We've already established that."


No we haven't.

In fact, being MSM's how do you know anything about them as a group? they don't fill out survey's after all.

(Hint: hospital records might be a place to start - or finish - the endless search as to what STIs these guys have been infected with).
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
There is a service. perhaps you could call them on his behalf and see what kind of assistance they can offer him instead of flinging mud from the sidelines like you are now.....
- Replies: add
Re:
There's actually nothing in the queer planet post that invalidates Thu 15 Jun 2006 11:30:39.

HIV infection rates have increased in Victoria and Queensland and the majority of SGCPS do report having safe sex most of the time. Most gay men don't have HIV. About 1 in 6 in inner Sydney and a lower proportion elsewhere.

Risk indicators for seroconversion are: lots of unprotected sex, group sex, drug use etc but we need to remember that there's probably a couple of hundred thousand gay men in Sydney and the state reports around 350-400 new HIV notifications from gay and homosexually active men annually.

I don't see any inconsistency between the two posts at all.
regular poster - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"As you've clearly demonstrated, the real problem is with undiagnosed married MSM who never have sex with their wives, never use condoms with guys, are completely impervious to any safe sex message put about by anyone and all have had HIV unknowingly for about 20 years. How they've all been spared the evils of the Meth epidemic isn't entirely clear"

you should learn to just read the black writing, not the white spaces in between; none of the above was said at all. no wonder messages don't get through.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
He never said that, Angie Baby, but he ain't living in your world of make believe where all queers live in 2010 and their viruses too.
Erin Brockowitch - Replies: add
Re:
'I wonder wher he can turn for support, understanding, compassion and acceptance? Maybe he knows he'll just be told he's a waste of money and won't listen.'

Well he could never go to "that place". For a start he wouldn't have the right fashion code. And labels MATTER sweetie. Then of course he'd have to prove he's real, as no one would believe him, they'd think he was an hallucination. No one there ever heard of a gay man or a pozzie who was homeless or disadvantaged.
- Replies: add


Re:
I don't agree with him. The real problem is the services. Or lack of. And the attitude. It stinks, basically. He's right though about periodic surveys. They paint whatever picture people want painted. Sample choicing is the key. And crystal, how can anyone stop that? Not without awareness, which will never happen as long as the whole campaign system is answerable to someone with major problems in that area. The money has to go on something though hey?
- Replies: add
Re:
"of 74,000 acknowledged meth addicts in Australia, over half said they don't do safe sex."

But thre is no epiemic is there? It's all under control apparently. My dealer told me anyhow.
- Replies: add


Re:
Reckon somewhere we all know needs a might big makeover. Starts with an A...
- Replies: add
Re:
All meetings are self-supporting, no on is allowed to accept any money or payment of any sort. No losses - only a few thousand lives - and a few trillion neurons.
- Replies: add
Re:
There is an important point in your posting:

"It seems some of us are forgetting the safe sex message"


Some doesn't equal all, nor even majority.

If the majority of gay men didn't practise safe sex, then the notification rates would be well higher than 400 or so per year in nsw.
A 3 times a day man - Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


“This disease doesn’t discriminate. It doesn’t look at age, race or socio-economic status"
An estimated 20 percent of the more than 1 million people who have HIV/AIDS (in the U.S.) don’t know they’re infected. “The unfortunate thing is that the number of cases we see has stayed the same, because the epidemic is continuing,” said Dr. Robert Brennan, a Lynchburg specialist in infections and disease. “The ongoing concern is that people who are at risk for HIV and are asymptomatic do not get tested for HIV. In 2006 when we talk about high-risk individuals, we are not necessarily talking about men who have sex with men, IV drug users or individuals with blood transfusions - which have been the largest populations in the past. Currently, the highest risk for transmission is heterosexual transmission with individuals who do not know they are infected with HIV. Our largest population with new patients has heterosexual transmission, and a very large number of females compared to males.”

Extracted from full article "Free HIV/AIDS testing" By Cynthia T. Pegram June 16, 2006 NewsAdvance.com

http://www.newsadvance.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=LNA%2FMGArticle%2FLNA_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1149188535473&path=!news!archive

--------------------------------------

So my point is here, that if a specialist in disease and infections at an HIV/AIDS clinic with 20+ years experience believes HIV is not specifically a risk for gay men in gay ghettos...
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"It seems some of us are forgetting the safe sex message"

Oh gottit. So when you've worked out which are the SOME can you please campaign them. Ta. See it's pointless wasting money. Campaigning everyone. Just the individuals who are forgetting. 9How will you get their addresses?)
ord guy - Replies: add
This post should be interpreted as being sarcastic.


Re:
"hospital records might be a place to start - or finish - the endless search as to what STIs these guys have been infected with"

IF they tested, which, as established about a week ago, they DON'T.

Next please?
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
"If the majority of gay men didn't practise safe sex, then the notification rates would be well higher than 400 or so per year in nsw." well, disregarding the undiagnosed cases,of which there could easily be hundreds, tell me the average incidence of infection for UAI. I read that HIV is actually the second most difficult disease to catch after leprosy. Hope i haven't ruined your theory with facts.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
"Most gay men don't have HIV."

That is irrelevant, what's your point? Campaigns can't just slow to a halt on that premise. Prevention needs to be ongoing - particularly in light of the escalating (and unaddressed) crystal meth addiction epidemic and growing nonchalance that's come about with HAART improvements.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
"If the majority of gay men didn't practise safe sex, then the notification rates would be well higher than 400 or so per year in nsw."

Never mind what the majority are doing. The majority of people don't smoke but that take away the need to keep recreating quit campagins.
anon - Replies: add


"Sample choicing is the key."


What's "sample choicing?"

If you're talking about the Sydney periodic survey, it happens twice a year; once at Fairday and once at a range of venues in Sydney including SOPV's (not only 2010), doctors' surgeries etc
- Replies: 1, add


"Periodic whats? :-) (I said nothing about any "surbeys").

The Someone else with an "ord guy" nick posted: And the problems with periodic surbeys is that sampling choices affect results, as is the case in the recent two differing public opinion polls we've seen compete in the mainstream media concerning views on same-sex relationship recognition.

As for "misrepresentation," read back through your posts. You'll see exactly where you've made every point I've identified. When it was pointed out to you that a tide of undiagnosed married or heterosexually-partnered MSM would be generating a wave of infections in women, you insisted that these guys didn't have sex with women. We await your evidence...


"Oh, and I have said, also, that in existing notification data, the person seroconverting's self-chosen sexual identity is not indicated - therefore all transmissions caused by homosexual and bisexual contacts are being assumed to be "gay".

They're not. The surveillance data category actually reads "gay or homosexually active."
- Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Dopamine, Methamphetamines, and You
*
http://p102.ezboard.com/fcrystalrecoveryhelpforum96370frm2.showMessage?topicID=72.topic
*
- Replies: add
"of 74,000 acknowledged meth addicts in Australia, over half said they don't do safe sex."

Have you got any evidence to support this assertion?

Did the "74,000 acknowledged meth addicts" fill out a survey
somewhere?
regular poster - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
"... the current Sydney Star Observer, an advertisement for men who have sex in groups to participate in yet another such exclusive survey."

Do you have any suggestions of where else they can advertise so that they get a reasonable number of participants?
Arti Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


Absolutely disgusted
I've just sat and read everything since my last post and I feel nothing but contempt for many of those comments. Sarcasm and come-backs are okay, but this is purely vindictive back-stabbing.

Drugs are a problem; unsafe sex is a problem; demographics are severely problematic--sitting and pointing fingers of blame never solved anything, so please stop.

This new wall was properly established as an entity in its own right because it was finally coming to people's attention that HIV is a serious issue. If you want this wall suspended or completely closed down, just keep up the bitchy snipes.

Realistically, suburban and rural "gay" men are not likely to be regular readers of Oxford St publications. If the number of MSMs admitting to unsafe sexual activities really is 20-35% I have only one question to ask. Why amongst people exposed to the correct information and capable of participating in such surveys is this figure so exhorbitantly high?

Now please cut out the rabid backbiting, visit the local vet for a distemper shot and when you've all stopped foaming at the mouth come back to the table with an intelligent response to a serious problem.

Maybe every word typed by PIXGUY isn't gospel, but at least it's honest and based on real life experience and he's offering people the chance to learn from someone else's mistake. Recognise the opportunity presented and avail yourselves of it.
The Professor Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


Re:
'Do you have any suggestions of where else they can advertise so that they get a reasonable number of participants?'

Sampling is a science in itself, you can learn about it from companies such as Newspoll. So is statistics. Anyone can use numbers to back up any old story they want to. But the whole point to this side of the discussion is that samples are deliberately being picked and chosen for convenience. If they can make it look like a small portion of a few guys in one area then that's (ostensibly) a way of trying to justify (what are actually) slack, under-scaled, consciously ineffective campaigns. Why do that? Less hard yakka for a start. And continuing business when campaigns prove unsuccessful in eradicating HIV.

Meanwhile: HIV continues to transmit and an industry thrives. Remember, these people are mainly going to be very stuck for any similarly paid job at which they can do exactly what they want, tell people what they want and spend public money primping themselves like little primadonnas.

Where else to advertise? Don't. Rely on common sense and thorough measures. Campaign across the board. HIV is not fussy who it infects so if you're resourced to cover NSW COVER NSW - not a camp corner of Darlinghurst.
anon - Replies: add


Re:
'The Someone else with an "ord guy" nick posted: And the problems with periodic surbeys is that sampling choices affect results, as is the case in the recent two differing public opinion polls we've seen compete in the mainstream media concerning views on same-sex relationship recognition'

That was not someone else that was me and AGAIN you are trying to twist the meaning of what I said. I see no anomally in any of the said postings. Yes: "the problems with periodic surveys is that sampling choices affect results, as is the case in the recent two differing public opinion polls we've seen compete in the mainstream media concerning views on same-sex relationship recognition" What words don't you get?

'As for "misrepresentation," read back through your posts'

No way. If you say you can quote me go ahead and do it. You know where the scroll bar is.

'you insisted that these guys didn't have sex with women'

Wrong. I "insisted" no such thing. I said they probably either used condoms or had poor/infrequent/deteriated sex lives with their female partners if they were closet gays which, along with the . That is not quoting what I said. I'm not copy and pasting it for you, do it you self. We both know you are playing word games.

'The surveillance data category actually reads "gay or homosexually active."'

Their self-described sexual identity is NOT, repeat NOT used in notification data, either you are lying or ignorant, whichever way it is you are wrong. So I'll say it again, if a man contracts HIV by homosexual/bisexual activity THAT IS WHAT HE WILL BE DESCRIBED AS ON THE NOTIFICATION: "Gay or homosexually active." Whether the man himself calls himself "heterosexual-identifying" is not accounted for in notification data.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"a tide of undiagnosed married or heterosexually-partnered MSM would be generating a wave of infections in women, you insisted that these guys didn't have sex with women. We await your evidence..."

since when did it become anyone else's job to be doing the research but those funded for it? anyway, a quick google will find all the evidence you need, if you care to look. In 60 seconds, I uncovered:

* "It is estimated that 1 out of 3 couples struggle with problems associated with low sexual desire."
* "One study found that 20% of married couples have sex less than 10 times a year"
* "Complaints about low desire are the #1 problem brought to sex therapists."

The point made was that non gay-identifying MSM's may not necessarily infect their wives because long term str8 marriages don't fuck like poofs do, even less so when the male partner is a closet, the wife may seroconvert and not know it anyway, and the male partner is likely to use a condom being aware that he has exposed himself to a number of sti's apart from HIV. But having sex less than 10 times a year with a wife does not mean the makle is only having sex 10 times a year, Blossom. he's probably shagging on the way home from work 5 x a week.

You really are determined to vindicate the fact that not near enough is being done in terms of energy and imagination put into HIV campaigns. I can't begin to imagine why you would have that agenda.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
the link has been posted above twice already.

http://www.lifeormeth.com/

if your only interest is in mocking posts that you haven't even bothered to fully read, your contribution may not be very helpful.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
'Did the "74,000 acknowledged meth addicts" fill out a survey somewhere?'

Not one of your little diddy Darlo surveys of two thousand circuit queens - think higher, wider. I'll trade you for it when you can back up your assertion that Crystal Meth Users Anonymous is costing you firm money, along with Area Health Service notification data evidence.
- Replies: add


Re:
What's "sample choicing?" If you're talking about the Sydney periodic survey, it happens twice a year; once at Fairday and once at a range of venues in Sydney including SOPV's (not only 2010), doctors' surgeries etc.

Sample choicing is just that. And the point consistently made on here by various posters is that if you only survey gay identifying men, you'll only end up with data showing facts about gay identifying men. The HIV virus is not unique to gay identifying men so why only survey them, and why not survey MSM across the whoe state? Negative and positive? If your data is restricted to a small centralised clique that's what its reults will reflect as being the complete picture when it actually isn't.
- Replies: add


Re:
"We await your evidence"...

it seems someone else can see a problem too. You may have your evidence later this year, hold your breath. I assume academics are capable of considering the bleeding obvious without resort to your 'supposed vast armies of invible HIV+ men' hyperbole...

update: MARRIED MEN STUDY
University of Sydney School of Biomedical Sciences
Source:Sydney Star Observer, 9 February 2006

The School of Biomedical Sciences, University of Sydney, is undertaking research with men who are currently or ever have been in a heterosexual relationship (either married or de facto) and who have sex with men. Information collected will remain confidential and be used for research purposes only; individuals will in no way be identifiable.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


I'm sorry Professor, I object to having opinions stuffed down my throat. I think Pixguy and sometimes even Ord Guy are just too dogmatic. I'm an intelligent, knowledgeable person. I'm not stupid or unsophisticated. I'm fully aware of HIV issues, transmission patterns and treatments. Some questions do need to be discussed. But this is not the way to go. These tirades will go nowhere. I wonder if this webpage has served its purpose and is now redundant. It's now hurting more than helping I suspect. There's no real discussion here as there was previously. It just depresses me to read these exchamges.
Paul Diamondo - Replies: 1, add
Re:
Professor, I can't believe you wrote that. It seems like you can't see what is going on under your own nose. Pixguy is just slamming every one who questions anything he says. He's a dogmatic, rude bully who won't rest till he has the last word. I can't learn anything from people like that. The suggestion that I should "recognise the opportunity and avil myself of it" is just a joke when I've been accused of being an addict in denial but someone who knows absolutely nothing about me but presumes to know it all. Honestly, I find it just nauseating.
Xtallographer - Replies: add
I have reopened this wall. Please do not feel you have to reply immediately to every post. Please take your time to reply and address the issues, not the person.
Panther Confirmed - Replies: add
Re:
"I'm sorry Professor, I object to having opinions stuffed down my throat. I think Pixguy and sometimes even Ord Guy are just too dogmatic. I'm an intelligent, knowledgeable person. I'm not stupid or unsophisticated. I'm fully aware of HIV issues, transmission patterns and treatments."

Paul I've had days to think over your posting and several notions have been pestering to get out in response. I think before I express those it's in order to point out your notable lack of contribution to the discussion in recent months except to throw in a couple of character judgements, which I don't see particularly relevant, useful or appropriate.

Now to business. Whether you want to call it dogma or anything else (and I'd rather hear a heartfelt expression than a tepid, indifferent one any day) please remember that if it weren't for the enthusiasm and motivation of a now ravaged generation of gays (thankyou HIV) you wouldn't today be enjoying the rights you do. If people decades ago had sat back slinging mud occasionally from the sideines nothing would have been achieved and we'd no doubt still be criminals.

Next. I've been following this discussion for 3 wall now and have kept up with you scattered comments, all condemning critics of NGOs and invalidating anyone who dares speak the sacrelidge of knocking "those" places. But when months ago it was put to you that you were behaving biasedly in favour towards NGOs you adomently and categorically insisted you were neither employed by one, associated with any, volunteering for any or even closely aquainted with anyone who is. These points you stipulated while telling us all you were not HIV positive either. So on that basis alone, how do you substantiate calling yourself in the above posting "fully aware of HIV issues"? On precisely what personal experience are you drawing here to be in a posituion to be passing judgement on two posters who have researched for this wall and presented fact after fact, day after day for months on end? I really don't see it Paul, sorry. Added to which both you and Xtallogarapher, in one posting directly following the other, use the same word "dogmatic", not a common piece of the pink vernacular on even the ecciest of Tuesdays (oh it was a Friday, true). Now that makes one wonder a number of things, but I'm not going there at all, Paul.

Finally, if it depresses you to read these "exchanges" why are you reading them? Did you ever consider that if members of the house never raised their voices or called a spad a spade occasionally (DAILY actually) there'd be no machine of democracy for all the non-players to lay back and rest their feet on? You think this wall is redundant? I see community forum as part of the process of progress, and that was never achieved by people blowing air kisses at each other. And we both know that no one ever enjoys being proven wrong
:-)
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Response
Please rest assured that most of my invective whip-cracking was aimed at those still hiding behind anonymous postings.
     It still hasn't been established if OG, Ord Guy and Ordinary Guy are variants of the same person or completely different people.
     I am not defending Pixguy on every little detail of what he says, but as a poz, he speaks with an authority that none of the rest of us can claim.
     When I went to Uni, I had to insist that my DSS file remain local and not be transferred to Sydney as well. Why? Because I didn't want to have to re-educate a variety of Sydney staff on CFS. At least with the file held in one office, there was one person who knew what was going on, and knew the efforts I was putting into self-rehabilitation.
     Xtalographer. I think you walk a fine line playing with a dangerous substance. If you sincerely "believe" you can give it up any time, then start now for six months and prove it. While presented as a "challenge" it is motivated out of concern for anyone's and everyone's health, not judgement. I can walk past banned foods: any meat that was previously attached to two or four legs (fish is okay), any grain product (bread etc.), most sugar foods, but those Tim-Tams are shipped with demons in the same packet, so the strategy there is don't buy them in the first place.
     ...no one ever enjoys being proven wrong? On the contrary, if someone can hit me with concrete proof, I will stand corrected, because mistakes are lessons too.
     We all have our own opinions and often limited access to real facts. Arti and I have thrashed this out on the Green Wall, where evidence that doesn't fit the favored theory is discarded rather than disturb the status quo.
     I can't help but notice that to date, the only responses to my post have been from named persons and none of the snipers I was targeting.
     Again, I point out this is a serious issue, and instead of throwing knives, please start throwing ideas. Some will never float, others may hit the mark.
     For my major work this year, I wrote a script centered on homophobia (father against his own son), and while I found many people who said "It's a good script", and wanted to see the final product, I couldn't find anyone with the guts to play any of the roles (even the straight roles). So it sits in a file until I again visit a major capital city and hunt the "gay ghettos" for people unafraid of dealing with this topic.
     Homophobia is real. AIDS is real. HIV is real. If someone wants to point out an error in another post, then site it as an "error", not "You're wrong, Jana, completely wrong, wrong. No, Jana, you're wrong!"
     Perhaps this wall has served its purpose in making a limited number of people more aware of this condition, but how are we going to take on the responsibility of educating everyone else? As repeatedly argued the NGOs are failing in this area, and the Government funded bodies are doing no better. Pinkboard is a community.
     Maybe people who are "out" and about can make up simple t-shirts, "I use condoms. Do you?"
The Professor Confirmed - Come on guys, let's get sloganed up! - Replies: 1, add
Re:
I welcome Paul's contribution. Long may it continue.
More people should be encouraged to join the discussion. If you only want to hear from people who agree with your perspective you should maybe consider starting your own blog.
regular poster - Replies: 1, add
I've just done a weekend workshop on HIV during which I heard PLWHA's referred to as 'those people', AIDS patients' and "one of them gave my best friend AIDS'. So long as such ignorance remains prevalent in the community, I make no apology for challenging the picture of Living with HIV that is traditionally presented. Nor am I sorry if it is seen as 'bullying' that I stand my ground on issues of which I am strongly convicted, being a poz man myself, and for which I do research to present strong evidence, links and references.

There's a phenomenon that some people just don't want to hear anything that challenges their view and that can be challenging and frustrating at times. I agree with 'regular poster'... "If you only want to hear from people who agree with your perspective you should maybe consider starting your own blog."
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


To continue...

The suggestion that it is quite likely that large numbers of str8-identifying and cultural closetted men are engaging in unsafe sex, and may have unknowingly seroconverted, was answered with ...' these supposed vast armies of mysterious invisible guys...' by anonymous voices and, 'The debate about whether people living outside "gay sydney" are likely or not to transmit HIV is now closed. It appears from the foregoing discussion that there is no decisive evidence showing whether or not this is occuring. Therefore any statement on this matter is an opinion only,' by Panther.

I am wondering if the fact that the School of Biomedical Sciences, University of Sydney, is undertaking research with men who are currently or ever have been in a heterosexual relationship (either married or de facto) and who have sex with men, rings any bells. Or that another university is conducting research into how same-sex attracted Arab Australians negotiate their sexual identities with their familial, religious and cultural lives?
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
'If you only want to hear from people who agree with your perspective you should maybe consider starting your own blog.'

Regular Poster, time and time again on here your own perspective has been proven narrow, insular and out of touch, but maybe you should suggest starting a "queens of denial" blogg to your only two sympathisers who get "nauseated" by factual data and don't like having "opinions shoved down their throats" (but have none of their own) and one of whom habitually braggs about his crystal habit and unsafe sex practices, the other who pops up every couple of months to make personal comments about posters and avoids addressing the issues totally. BTW I'm still waiting for your evidence that MSM living out of "gay Sydney" and shy away from testing are a figment of our imaginations, that crystal meth is unproven to be linked with HIV transmission and not a major community health issue and that currently existing strategies to address the problem exist and cost the sector money from which you feel the losses should be cut, that HIV notifiaction data indicates a man's self-chosen sexual identity...and in fact that, basically, the while HIV transmission situation is not in need of address and that potential crystal meth addicts will refuse to listen to sound education advice about is dangers to their health.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


OK here are some handy tips for the next MSM research that's undertaken
Seeing past surveys seem designed to just make campaigning fun and easy, I'm posting some research basics which would contribute to legitimising future studies used by GLBT NGOs.

Quality quantitative research requires a systematic and comprehensive approach that produces tangible evidence of anything is usually assigned only to actively maintained panels to ensure quality responses, involves particular attention to sample design and selection, tested and proven rigorous methodology, geographic and demographic analysis, strict demographic quotas and thorough weighting to help ensure representative, consistent results:

*Questionnaires: Carefully designed & checked

*Sample selection/control: Rigorous design & comprehensive use of weightings

*Quality interviewing: Extensive training, briefing & checking.

*IQCA accredited Field Team Data processing: Data is thoroughly checked through extensive quality control procedures

*A thorough and reliable customised research study should include a full range of data collection methods including: Telephone, Online, Face to Face (ie.e door to door, shopping centres). Plus Self Completion (email, fax, mail).

No Golden Mile doctor's surgery quizz pad project will ever produce substantial data about why HIV transission continues despite 25 years of continually sending out one repeated message, all they produce is an excuse to pretend there's not a problem.
anon - Replies: add


Re:
The fact remains that if large numbers of str8-identifying and culturally-closeted men were unknowingly seroconverting , we would see it showing up in the data. Either in a much higher rate of heterosexual conversions, particularly amongst women or in a steep rise of late presentations of people who had already progessed - unknowingly - to AIDS. It would be very unlikely indeed, for such cases to go unnoticed for more than 3-5 years.

I don't think there's any argument that the NSW epidemic isn't just about inner Sydney, nor that messages need to reach beyond 2010 but the data do point to the continuing need for a priority focus in that area.

Research in the areas you've indicated is a good thing and it's ongoing. The National Centre in HIV Social Research has just completed an interesting study into culturally and linguistically diverse poz communities for instance.

The fact that we need to do all these things concurrently and reach out to all these groups - not just one of them - is surely the point. But we also need to concentrate the focus on where the data tell us the highest risk exists.
regular poster - Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Re:
'Please rest assured that most of my invective whip-cracking was aimed at those still hiding behind anonymous postings. It still hasn't been established if OG, Ord Guy and Ordinary Guy are variants of the same person or completely different people.'

Professor, ALL postings are anonymous (except pixguy's)including titles like Regular Poster etc so I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. However, to address you specific reference to myself, I was using Ordinary Guy, then abbreviated it for convienience. I am the self-same poster who put the CFS links on the wall for your personal attention and am a long term survivor of CFS, HIV as well as having many years of consistent successful recovery from addiction, all from which I draw when posting on here. I also post on the Equality wall under the same name, there is nothing mysterious or any more anonymous about my post identity than there is about anyone elses. What exactly is your issue here? I might also just take the opportunity to add that on previous occasions when you were so concerned to establish whether I was all three variations of the same name my attempts to answer you did not get posted.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
The fact remains that if large numbers of str8-identifying and culturally-closeted men were unknowingly seroconverting , we would see it showing up in the data. Either in a much higher rate of heterosexual conversions, particularly amongst women or in a steep rise of late presentations of people who had already progessed - unknowingly - to AIDS. It would be very unlikely indeed, for such cases to go unnoticed for more than 3-5 years.""

What you've said here is unfouded. In the LAST 3-5 years higher risk sex has been occurring than previously (not confined to the Darlinghurst/gay centre) in MSM. It will take LONGER than another 3-5 years for notifications to show in data, and even THEN the notifications will interpret as gay men, as the only details given in notifications is type of transmission (i.e. homosexual/bisexual activity). You are completely off the mark thinking existing data is anything to go by, it's out of date and not reflective of changing trends currently the topic of anecdotal evidence, and until such surveys are completed to make the outlined improvements recommende on here, ongoing survey data will remain as unreliable as past survey data. Anecdotal evidence is more reliable in this instance, as there won't be adequate research undertaken by any independent bodies to fix the current flaw with existing survey data.

Also it doesn't matter how large or small the concentrations of high risk groups are geographically, EVERYONE should be covered in campaigns, THIS IS WHERE THEY FAIL, by only addressing what people like you THINK are the priority/high risk demographics.

If what you argued was sound, there would be no more HIV in society anywhere.
datographer - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"But we also need to concentrate the focus on where the data tell us the highest risk exists."

The data tells us one of the highest risk groups is crystal meth users, and that gay men are in danger of a specific addiction epidemic already hitting our community. There is a distinct lack of awareness campaigns about crystal meth and its dangers to peoples health (as well as its link with HIV transmission). Why are existing resources not allocated to this vital purpose in line with other gay capitals and why do you persistently dodge this point on this wall?
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"Anecdotal evidence is more reliable in this instance, as there won't be adequate research undertaken by any independent bodies to fix the current flaw with existing survey data."

Anecdotal evidence isn't "more reliable" at all. We rely on surveillance and survey data in order to know what's going on. Everyone needs to know about safe sex, I agree. But the fact is that some groups are at higher risk for HIV infection than others. You may choose to disregard the data but that doesn't make it "wrong" at all. Equally you may "know" that the prevention priority is other than where the surveillance data might indicate but you can't substantiate it. I don't think what I've said is "unfounded" at all.
regular poster - Replies: 1, 2, add


"No Golden Mile doctor's surgery quizz pad project will ever produce substantial data about why HIV transission continues despite 25 years of continually sending out one repeated message, all they produce is an excuse to pretend there's not a problem."

Well, no. But a major difference between the early 1980's and now is that seroconverting takes place against a drastically different life prognosis now to what it did then. In essence, HIV is less dangerous as a prospect. The fact remains that using a condom for casual sexual encounters is the safest way to avoid it. The reality is that the results of doing so are significantly less dire than they were.
regular poster - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
"It would be very unlikely indeed, for such cases to go unnoticed for more than 3-5 years."..?

With the utmost respect, :) I must question your prognosis for new seroconversions. In my own case, I was very ill for six weeks when I seroconverted. My GP said there was a lot of 'flu' around and had me on antibiotics. If I had not struggled back to his surgery after four weeks and asked that he do blood tests, I would have just seen the illness out and gone back to my life, none the wiser that I was now positive. I also understand that most seroconversions are not so dramatic, so someone could easily have become positive and not know it.

Second, your prognosis of 3 - 5 years contradicts anecdotal evidence I hear all the time of guys going ten/twenty years with no ill effects. I'm told I will lose on average 50 cd4 cells a year. At that rate, I, for one, have at least 10 years before i need to even think about retrovirals.

My point here is that I still haven't seen any evidence to prove that the non-gay MSM suburban situation is not a huge other part of the HIV picture that is being ignored, and contributing to inner Sydney infection rates through anonymous sex sites. I'm talking about Mr. Front door/back door/ labrador/ Commodore wife and three kids who is hooked into a totally hetero network of lifetime friends and family who doesn't for one minute think that shagging that kid in the toilet block on the way home from work makes him gay or at risk.
If you can find the work that The National Centre in HIV Social Research has just completed, it would be most interesting.
Thanks
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
"I am wondering if the fact that the School of Biomedical Sciences, University of Sydney, is undertaking research with men who are currently or ever have been in a heterosexual relationship (either married or de facto) and who have sex with men, rings any bells. Or that another university is conducting research into how same-sex attracted Arab Australians negotiate their sexual identities with their familial, religious and cultural lives?"


no-one is denying that MSM/married men etc exist.

only on what their risk levels are, and what their condom use is.

From MY experience in dealing with people who live in the burbs (because that's were i live), MSMs are still very much afraid of HIV and thus use condoms for anal sex (and most don't even do anal sex).

Granted my experience isn't everyone's experience, but it's definitely the very strong trend i have seen.

as for gay men who have sex on the scene (not necessarily living on the scene), again my experience has been that safe sex culture is the norm.
- Replies: 1, 2, add


Silence=Meth Campaign, New York, June 2006
'NEW YORK - As the discovery of AIDS nears its 25th anniversary, the gay community is grappling with a new epidemic, a dramatic increase in the use of what many consider to be the most dangerous drug in the United States - Crystal Meth. In an effort to combat abuse of this highly addictive drug, New York City's LGBT Community Center announced the launch of a new ad campaign with the message: "Silence=Meth." The phrase "Silence=Meth" is a slightly modified but equally haunting reinterpretation of ACT UP's famous "Silence=Death" campaign during the 1980s AIDS crisis, when posters bearing the words "Silence=Death" were plastered throughout New York City. The posters became a wake-up call to action for gay and bisexual men, who are most vulnerable to AIDS. "Twenty-five years ago our community refused to be silent about AIDS," said Richard Burns, executive director of the Center. "Just as the ACT UP campaign alerted the gay community to AIDS in the 1980s and '90s, the Center's "Silence=Meth" campaign will focus attention on the danger of Crystal Meth and what the entire community must do to help prevent abuse and addiction to this drug." Affecting all races, ages and sexual orientations, Crystal Meth is a powerful mood-altering stimulant that has been sweeping through communities... "The ACT UP ads put our government on notice that the gay and lesbian community would no longer tolerate its silence on the devastation of AIDS," said Barbara Warren, the Center's director for Organizational Development, Planning and Research. "Today, we need to keep talking within our community about how to address the impact of meth use and we also need to hold government accountable for giving us the necessary resources to effectively implement meth prevention and treatment. Crystal Meth not only affects the user, but everyone in the user's life - friends, family, coworkers, community and society. No one can afford to be silent about Meth." The Center's new ads will be posted throughout the Chelsea neighborhood urging action by friends and loved ones of Crystal Meth users. On the posters, below a pink triangle and the words "Silence=Meth," is the sobering statement, "25 years ago, our community refused to be silent about AIDS. Today, we must not be silent about Crystal Meth." The Center's "Silence=Meth" ads are part of a larger campaign to focus anti-Crystal Meth messaging not only on the gay and bisexual men who use the drug, but on the friends and loved ones of the users as well. "The 25-year separation of the two campaigns is particularly relevant because the epidemics are so closely connected," Burns said. "The relationship between Crystal Meth and HIV/AIDS has become clearer over the past few years with studies showing that Crystal Meth users are more likely to engage in unsafe sex and that HIV-positive men are more likely to use Crystal Meth." In a 2006 survey of gay and bisexual men in New York City, approximately one in four indicated the use of Crystal Meth in the period of six months prior to the assessment. In a previous study this figure was estimated to be 14 percent, making New York second only to San Francisco as the United States city with the greatest number of gay and bisexual men who use Crystal Meth. In addition to its counseling services, the Center has addressed the Crystal Meth crisis through its community forums, education campaigns, public policy advocacy efforts and independent research. Congress demonstrated in 2005 its support of the Center by allocating federal funds for the expansion and enhancement of the Center's Crystal Meth prevention and counseling programs. The announcement of the "Silence=Meth" campaign comes just before June's National Gay Pride Month, an event marked by the annual parade through New York City on the last Sunday of the month. [6/6/06]

(From Out In Long Island article "METH CAMPAIGN TARGETS EPIDEMIC 25 YEARS AFTER HIV/AIDS DISCOVERY" author unstated, OIA Newsdesk: http://www.outinlongisland.com/home/news.asp?articleid=29232
ord guy - Replies: add


Fri, Jun. 16, 2006 Project PHASE (Preventing HIV And Substance Abuse Effectively)
There is much work to be done in the fields of HIV prevention and education. Vital lessons have been learned about reaching those at high risk. Yet today, those at high risk are all of us. Transmission rates in the gay community might have dropped in the mid-1990s, but they now remain at unacceptable levels with the pervasive use of crystal meth and its direct correlation with unsafe sexual behavior. Project PHASE (Preventing HIV And Substance Abuse Effectively) is one of the many prevention and clinical programs at Switchboard of Miami reaching many people, regardless of gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation or socioeconomic status. The underlying success of this four-year-old program simply is from using effective communication. Constant and effective communication among communities, families and youth is one of the critical elements to lowering rates of HIV transmission and substance use and abuse. If we continue to reduce barriers to communication, such as stigma, bias, hatred and fear, we can increase healthier patterns of speaking openly to one another about HIV and AIDS transmission, prevention and treatment. We clearly have found this to be true when working with youth and their families from all racial and ethnic backgrounds.

MICHAEL P. DENTATO, director of clinical services, Switchboard of Miami, "Despite progress, the fight against AIDS has far To Go" Miami Herald, Jun 16 2006
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/14831047.htm
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


"the crystal meth epidemic in our community is closely linked to the prevalence of depression"
Research also points to a high prevalence of depression in our communities. One study found that it strikes gays four to five times more severely than their non-gay peers. A survey in 2000 found that for gay men, depression was their most serious health concern after HIV, and that for lesbians, depression and mental health was their number one concern. And a 1989 study by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services showed that gays and lesbians are two to three times more likely to attempt suicide than heterosexuals. Depression can make us less motivated to take care of ourselves, and make it easier to engage in high-risk behaviors, which means that awareness of depression is linked to HIV prevention. Many depressed people also have problems with alcohol or other drugs. Some drugs, especially uppers like crystal meth, relieve depression briefly, but make it much worse in the long run. I’m convinced that the crystal meth epidemic in our community is closely linked to the prevalence of depression.

(Extracted from "Depression in our Communities" By psychotherapist Tom Moon, Published June 15 2006, San Francisco Bay Times)
http://www.sfbaytimes.com/?sec=article&article_id=5103
anon - Replies: add


Re:
"Are you kiddig yourself or what? Not according to the cult of Barebacking which has emerged and exploded in recent years. There are whole websites devoted to it, clubs for it, in fact many on Gaydar will only BB. If you try and enter a cubicle at the fuck clubs with a condom in your hand you get shoved out of the door quick smart. What planet are you on?"


I live on the planet where periodic survey's show that the majority of gay men practise safe sex.


"Anecdotal evidence will soundly back this up, so if you haven't been getting out much just go for it and talk to a few people, expand your horizons and learn about current sexual habits. It's obvious that anecdotal evidenc with be more sound on the subject of barebacking because there's so much more anecdotal evidence than study data - let's face it you can't interview every queer in the state can you?"

Ancedotal evidence has it's place - unfortunately in this one ancedotal evidence still doesn't say that bareback/high risk sex culture is the majority.

Keep on banging your head against the brick wall all you want. but the truth is that gay men are experts at safe sex and we have been doing it for the past 20 years very well.

It's not my fault if you or your circle of friends are part of a "cult" and not the majority.
- Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Couldn't find the 'The National Centre in HIV Social Research', reg post., but I'm sure that's just due to my own incompetence.

However on a US site, this: "Being competent in cross-cultural functioning means learning new patterns of behavior and effectively applying them in the appropriate settings. For example, for HIV/AIDS prevention to succeed, the special needs and life contexts of vulnerable populations (i.e., those who are marginalized because of race, ethnicity, socioeconomic status (SES), sexual orientation, age, or gender) must be sensitively addressed. The integration and transformation of knowledge about individuals and groups of people into specific standards, policies, practices, and attitudes used in appropriate cultural settings to increase the quality of services and thereby producing better outcomes must be demonstrated not only by intervention programs and staff, but also by surveillance staff, researchers (and their investigations), as well as by those delivering prevention services, care, and treatment programs to those who are HIV-infected.'
http://www.cdcnpin.org/scripts/population/culture.asp#how

In other words, we have a kind of cultural barrier in Sydney. The refusal to accept ' these supposed vast armies of mysterious invisible guys...' is not atypical of the exclusionary and arrogant attitudes that exist in our self created ghetto; we make no time or room for anyone who doesn't fall within our narrow parameters of 'gay community'.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add


Is this U? "After all, I didn't invent sex, I didn't invent crystal meth, and I didn't invent HIV."
After crystal meth became a regular part of my liberated sex life, condom use was fully discontinued out of erectile futility. My flippant rationalization regarding the risk of HIV infection: There are pills for that. After all, I didn't invent sex, I didn't invent crystal meth, and I didn't invent HIV. It's not my fault if I get sick and pass it on to some other sucker. Somewhere between freedom and responsibility lies a healthy balance. Weaning myself from an unhealthy lifestyle of toxic drugs and unprotected sex required a hard-line approach. But I'm not done living yet. What I hope for is a gay community that is known for wellness, fulfillment and care. A place where I am really accepted just the way I am. If "gay" equals "whore," then what am I now? Whatever I am, I know I'm not the only one.

(From "Life After Meth A Town Square Opinion" by Chad Upham 06/01/2006 Metro Weekly http://www.metroweekly.com/gauge/commentary.php?ak=2132
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add


specialists estimate relapse rate of 60% to 95% on first attempts to stop use of drug
At first he only used on the weekends when partying. But later, when a three-year relationship ended, Sebastian turned increasingly to ice so that he didn’t have to feel any emotion. "At the height, it was a Tuesday through Sunday thing," he said. "I was off on Monday, and I would do ice the entire week to sustain that energy. Then Sunday night came around and I would crash and sleep all day Monday, until it was time to go to back to work on Tuesday. … It took over everything. I didn’t want to sleep or eat, I just didn’t want the party to end." As his addiction became stronger, Sebastian needed more and more crystal to maintain his high. In the beginning, a quarter gram lasted him a week. In the end, when he was using five days a week and sharing with a boyfriend, the same amount lasted for just one night. He was spending about $200 a week on the drug. "When I started using, I found this network of people who I thought genuinely cared about me. … When you’re on it, you feel like nothing can hurt you. You don’t give a shit about what people think of you. You don’t care that you don’t have your family because your friends are now your family — this drug is now your family." While recovering users do successfully kick the habit through lesser means, experts agree the most effective way to achieve long-term sobriety is through inpatient treatment. During a detox period that can last up to four days, those in recovery experience a variety of side-effects including anxiety, sweating spells and nausea. Often they are overtaken by extreme exhaustion — the result of so much expended energy and lost downtime during their use — and sleep for unusually long periods of time. Further complicating the process is the sometimes severe depression many experience. Since meth creates a significant continuous high, Martin said the return to what is a "normal" state-of-mind often feels like "the pits." "It’s really hard for them to cope with life as it is and overcome the cravings to be on that high. … It’s a lot of 12-step work, helping them deal with that depression, develop new coping skills to deal with life and not have to medicate to avoid it all. On the physical front, recovering addicts should acknowledge that their use may have done lasting damage to their bodies, Martin said. "We encourage people to deal more effectively with their health as part of beginning the process," Martin said. That includes everything from developing a regular exercise regimen and having a full physician check-up to getting tested immediately for HIV and other STDs they may have contracted while under the influence. Some effects can be more visible. Dentists say what is commonly referred to as "meth mouth" is a growing problem. The acidic chemicals in meth drastically reduce saliva in the user’s mouth, which in turn breaks down tooth enamel. That, combined with a user’s lack of hygiene when high and increased cravings for sugary foods and beverages, often leads to rapid tooth decay, one of the drug’s more lasting and noticeable consequences. Oak Lawn dentist Dr. Toby Petro said the number of recovering meth users he’s treating has risen over the last six months. "Very often we’re dealing with severe decay, which means a number of extractions," Petro said. "These patients are facing a lifetime without teeth." He adds it can take as little as six months for the drastic effects of meth mouth to take hold.

(Extract from "Meth’s psychological control complicates addicts’ recovery Treatment specialists estimate relapse rate of 60% to 95% on first attempts to stop use of drug; strong support essential to recovery" By A.J. Mistretta Dallas Voice, May 19, 2006)
http://www.dallasvoice.com/artman/exec/view.cgi/21/2182
anon - Replies: add


Re:
'I live on the planet where periodic survey's show that the majority of gay men practise safe sex.'

The poster was observing that periodic surveys don't COVER the majority of gay men, but in any case, what does what the majority do or don't fo have to do with anything? The majority of people don't smoke but there are Quit Smoking campaigns. Would it take for the majority of the population to seroconvert for you to acknowledge a need for more campaigning? If so I think we need someone NOT from your planet, but from this one.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
'most don't even do anal sex' ..the one thing that a MSM experience can give a staighty potatie that his wife can't is a cock up his bum. Anecdotes that "I didn't think I am at risk because I am not gay" are common. Google it.

'as for gay men who have sex on the scene... my experience has been that safe sex culture is the norm'? hellooooo? been to a sex part at HQ in the last ten years? counted the number of 'safe sex: sometimes/never/needs discussion' on dating sites? looked at the number of 'negative' men on http://www.bareback.com/ for australia?

apologies if I sound bullying, its just that your experience does not accord with the world I experience.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
"Ancedotal evidence has it's place - unfortunately in this one ancedotal evidence still doesn't say that bareback/high risk sex culture is the majority."


Well the maybe you should get out more because anecdotal evidence strongly confirms that unsafe sex has been progressively on the rise and is continuing to escalate.

I suppose the UN is part of the same cult then:

New HIV cases at alarming levels: UN
June 1, 2006

AUSTRALIA'S AIDS epidemic is not easing, with the number of annual HIV diagnoses reverting to the alarming levels of the early 1990s, a United Nations report has found. "These trends underline the need to revamp prevention..." the report said.
- Replies: add


Re:
'I live on the planet where periodic survey's show that the majority of gay men practise safe sex...' a 'sample' of 2000 men from gay venues would be laughed out of any academic circles as a reliable indicator of the whole HIV picture. The (much laboured) point of posts here for the last week is that there is no data, or interest 'on your planet' for the high risk groups outside the ghetto mentality's notion of 'gay'. Nevertheless, you seem to have your eyes wide shut, and that is, indeed, your 'fault'.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
"But I'm not done living yet. What I hope for is a gay community that is known for wellness, fulfillment and care. A place where I am really accepted just the way I am. If "gay" equals "whore," then what am I now? Whatever I am, I know I'm not the only one."

That's somehow, deeply moving.
- http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
"No Golden Mile doctor's surgery quizz pad project will ever produce substantial data about why HIV transission continues despite 25 years of continually sending out one repeated message, all they produce is an excuse to pretend there's not a problem."

Well, no. But a major difference between the early 1980's and now is that seroconverting takes place against a drastically different life prognosis now to what it did then. In essence, HIV is less dangerous as a prospect. The fact remains that using a condom for casual sexual encounters is the safest way to avoid it. The reality is that the results of doing so are significantly less dire than they were.

-----------------------------------------------
Your comment does not relate in any way, shape or form to the points made in the post you reply to. The whole www audience can see what you are doing here :-)
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
only on what their risk levels are, and what their condom use is. From MY experience in dealing with people who live in the burbs (because that's were i live), MSMs are still very much afraid of HIV and thus use condoms for anal sex (and most don't even do anal sex). Granted my experience isn't everyone's experience, but it's definitely the very strong trend i have seen. as for gay men who have sex on the scene (not necessarily living on the scene), again my experience has been that safe sex culture is the norm."

So there's no more need for HIV prevention campaigns anymmore then. Funny how Sydney's the only city on the planet to assume that position. PS What does "the norm have to do with the price of fish?
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add


"My point here is that I still haven't seen any evidence to prove that the non-gay MSM suburban situation is not a huge other part of the HIV picture that is being ignored, and contributing to inner Sydney infection rates"

More importantly, you haven't got any evidence to prove it is, either.

The evidence we do have suggests that this is not a "huge other part of the HIV picture."
regular poster - Replies: add


Re:
On every post I've made on this subject I've agreed entirely with the premise that infections do occur outside inner Sydney. I've also acknowledged the need to target groups other than 2010 gay men with prevention messaging.

None of this detracts from the fact that there is a clear and demonstrable priority attaching to engaging the highest risk group in terms of HIV transmission and our quarterly surveillance data doesn't support your continued insistence that gay men aren't that group.
regular poster - Replies: 1, add


"Second, your prognosis of 3 - 5 years contradicts anecdotal evidence I hear all the time of guys going ten/twenty years with no ill effects"

It doesn't contradict it at all. There are certainly longterm non-progressors who can indeed resist disease progression. Over time however, the evidence suggests that longterm non-progressors do progress. At 20 years out from diagnosis, they're probably around 1-2% of the HIV positive population. The vast majority of people infected with HIV do become symptomatic in a much shorter timeframe than 20 years.
regular poster - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
"The reality is that the results of doing so are significantly less dire than they were."

Staying alive for decades with a virus requiring toxic daily medications with side-effects is dire enough. Just because we don't die as quickly doesn't mean prevention promotion should be any less of a community priority.
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add


Re:
Anecdotal evidence isn't "more reliable" at all. We rely on surveillance and survey data in order to know what's going on. Everyone needs to know about safe sex, I agree. But the fact is that some groups are at higher risk for HIV infection than others. You may choose to disregard the data but that doesn't make it "wrong" at all. Equally you may "know" that the prevention priority is other than where the surveillance data might indicate but you can't substantiate it. I don't think what I've said is "unfounded" at all.'

Both the cults, of barebacking and of crystal meth use, are prevalent in NSW gay MSM, as is confirmed by increasingly aggressive and hostile behaviour in SOPVs and on internet cruise sites. The survey data relied on is inadequate and under-representative. It's time an independent body was established to monitor this issue. It would be very convenient for key bodies if those with their fingers on both the campaign buttons and the survey instructions were able to continue dictating the terms and conditions of both in a way that enables themselves to remain permanently out to lunch. In my opinion the performances of such bodies are currently unsatisfactory and have been for too long, and spokespersons are circumlocutive and recalcitrant when addressed, giving the impression they are of the conviction they are beyond question and answerable to none.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"The vast majority of people infected with HIV do become symptomatic in a much shorter timeframe than 20 years."

That does not detract from the original point: that there are currently undiagnosed HIV+ people who neither know they have sero-converted nor will be going for testing. Your speculation about when symptoms will show in each person etc is neither specific nor supported by statistical evidence.
- Replies: add


"Both the cults, of barebacking and of crystal meth use, are prevalent in NSW gay MSM, as is confirmed by increasingly aggressive and hostile behaviour in SOPVs and on internet cruise sites."

So tell me, which SOPV's do MSM's attend? (don't the posters of poofters on the walls kinda give them a hint they might be gay?)

and which websites do they log onto? (the only websites i know have the word "gay" in their title, so i'm guessing they would steer clear of them considering they don't consider themselve "gay").
- Replies: 1, add


You have no hard data to argue with.
Hard data shows:

* The rate of heterosexual trnsmission went up from 7 tp 23 per cent between 1996 - 2004 and notifications indicate no decrease since (remained stable just sounds better for apologists).

You admitted: "Transmission clearly occurs outside of the inner Sydney and the surveillance data quoted above is testament to that fact."

You even spilled this confused drivel: "What the data tell us is that the vast majority of annual HIV notifications in NSW occur in gay and homosexually active men aged in their 30's and 40's, most of whom report residence in the inner east and west of Sydney. The data also tell us that around 20% of the 10,000 people living with HIV in NSW speak a language other than English at home and of that 20%, roughly half identify as gay and half as heterosexual."

(We know that "The data also tell us that around 20% of the 10,000 people living with HIV in NSW speak a language other than English at home and of that 20%, roughly half identify as gay and half as heterosexual" is so misleading it may as well be considered false.

You had to ask "Did the "74,000 acknowledged meth addicts" fill out a survey somewhere?"

And you express doubt: "I don't think there's any argument around the fact that drugs are a powerful disinhibitor and do contribute to unsafe behaviour but I doubt very much that they're the only factor at play."

Yet the only form of "data" you have been able to present to argue you wobbly case on here is:

"There are thousands of poz gay men in Sydney including many who are undiagnosed and often highly infectious. There are not thousands of poz gay men in Casula. The statistical odds are against your suggestion." - Thu 1 Jun 2006 23:25:47

Then there's:

"personally, i don't know why you are so resistant over the idea that it's gay sydney that has the major problem with seroconversions.- Fri 2 Jun 2006 06:29:02

" The majority of people living with HIV in NSW are located in inner Sydney - which is also where the substantial proportion of gay men congregate. That's where the major risk of new infections is located and the place of residence of those diagnosed tends to bear that out. - Fri 2 Jun 2006 11:39:49

"You can't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars without evidence. the evidence is that the infections are happening to gay men living in gay sydney. Gay men having sex in gay sydney is the high risk that is attempting to be minimized by campaigns - Fri 2 Jun 2006 14:05:36

The data show that most people acquiring HIV are gay and homosexually active men aged between 30 and 49, residing in the inner east and inner west of Sydney. There are much lower numbers reported from elsewhere in metropolitan Sydney." regular poster - Sat 3 Jun 2006 17:35:31

"the numbers aren't overwhelming in outer areas. they are concentrated in inner sydney. there is no escaping that the disease is CONCENTRATED in inner sydney."- Sat 3 Jun 2006 19:09:00

"People have always moved to the inner city in order to be gay but they don't tend to bring HIV with them. It's more often something that tends to happen after they arrive." regular poster - Sun 4 Jun 2006 21:53:48

"the majority (85%+) is gay men living in inner city.
- Tue 6 Jun 2006 06:20:09"

"What the data tell us is that the vast majority of annual HIV notifications in NSW occur in gay and homosexually active men aged in their 30's and 40's, most of whom report residence in the inner east and west of Sydney." Tue 6 Jun 2006 21:46:24

Oh, you've gone into the science of probability "The science of probability would suggest that this undetected pool would have been picked up at some point in the more than two decades in which the NSW epidemic has unfolded. There are certainly men who have seroconverted in the circumstances you outline but there's absolutely no evidence of "a very big problem" in this respect."

And sweeping generalisations like "People have always moved to the inner city in order to be gay but they don't tend to bring HIV with them. It's more often something that tends to happen after they arrive."

Plus sarcastic remarks such as "We now appear to have a vast army of married MSM who don't have sex with their wives and are all undiagnosed pozzies......"I guess we should also ask whether all these married-but-celibate-MSM-at-risk would be convinced by your campaign idea about focussing on the worst case scenario in living with HIV, pixguy. Would this huge pool of previously invisible at risk and undiagnosed guys be convinced by images of sick old poofs?"

So you're basically spouting a pile of twaddle.
datographer - Replies: add


Re:
There is an independent body set up to monitor. In NSW it's the Communicable Diseases Branch of NSW Health. The branch produces quarterly HIV surveillance data for the department. The national HIV surveillance database is maintained by the National Centre for HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research at UNSW under contract to the federal department of Health.

NGO's have absolutely no ability to "dictate the terms and conditions" of surveillance gathering and their campaign directions and priorities are decided upon by annual funding and performance agreements with NSW Health, based on the evidence gathered from surveillance data and behavioural studies.
- Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
No-one has suggested that prevention should be any less of a community priority. Quite the opposite in fact.
regular poster - Replies: 1, add
Re:
"So there's no more need for HIV prevention campaigns anymmore then. Funny how Sydney's the only city on the planet to assume that position. PS What does "the norm have to do with the price of fish?"


who said there was no need for HIV prevention campaigns? I'm saying they are working because the majority of MSMs and gay men in my experience are still practising safe sex after 20 years.

What does the norm have to do with the price of fish???

well basically it means that those people who are putting themselves at high risk of HIV are in the minority.
- Replies: 1, add


Australian HIV bodies aren't seeking equivalent crystal-HIV correlation surveillance to USA
A lot of posts on here are news report extracts covering the current American Crystal Meth campaigns aimed at gays at higher risk of contracting HIV because of their crystal meth use than those not using. The USA - even the UK - is able to rely on data to confirm this higher risk category because there surveillance is first recommended by HIV bodies, and then approved and commisioned by government (as per HIV org recommendations), then executed by survey bodies. Equivalent data is not coveted by Australian HIV bodies, who COULD recommend it for government approval and make valuable use of the results in designing future campaigns. There is no fathomable reason for this except the obvious reluctance to get busy.
anon - Replies: add
Ordinary Guy: No offence intended, but there has been copycatting of other people's unregistered tags previously.

Anon: Are you sure that EVERY notification is considered "gay"? What about needle-stick injury? I've had two such injuries and a knife attack, and despite my doubts about condoms, I have NEVER failed to use one and touch wood (hand on head), I've never had one break or slip off.

It is fair to say that out in the Redneck sticks, people who are diagnosed HIV+ are going to vehemently deny any homosexual activity, and insist that they must have caught it some other way. Certainly with the history outlined above, and the fact that I attend the same "church" as my regular doctor, I'm not about to announce "I'm gay!" because despite "confidentiality" the news would escape somehow.

Is there anyone here who can say they've filled out every survey that has passed under their noses, with 100% honesty?

Look up some of the answers given in the Census:
Religion: Jedi
Transport: Teleport, space shuttle, Tardis
Language spoken at home: Klingon

Quantitative surveys need to be LARGE to overcome these sorts of anomalies, and when it comes to Farmer Brown and Bumpy the Cow, that's unlikely to show up anywhere.
The Professor Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"We rely on surveillance and survey data in order to know what's going on. Everyone needs to know about safe sex, I agree."

Periodic surveys don't COVER the majority of gay men, but in any case, what does what the majority do or don't fo have to do with anything? The majority of people don't smoke but there are Quit Smoking campaigns. Would it take for the majority of the population to seroconvert for you to acknowledge a need for more campaigning?
anon - Replies: add


Data shows 74,000 crystal meth addicts in Sydney, with 50% admitting to unsafe ses practices
'You may choose to disregard the data but that doesn't make it "wrong" at all.'

You are choosing to ignore data showing 74,000 crystal meth addicts in Sydney, with 50% admitting to unsafe ses practices

'But a major difference between the early 1980's and now is that seroconverting takes place against a drastically different life prognosis now to what it did then. In essence, HIV is less dangerous as a prospect. The fact remains that using a condom for casual sexual encounters is the safest way to avoid it. The reality is that the results of doing so are significantly less dire than they were.'

In the early '80s we weren't subject to a crystal meth addiction epipemic. The prognoses for crystal addicts is different for otheres, are they are unable to remember/adhere to medication regimens and uninclined to use condoms. The reality is that the results of your choosing to ignore this important factor will inevitably show in future data.
anon - Replies: add


Re:
'Quarterly surveillance data doesn't support your continued insistence that gay men aren't that group.'

Quarterly surveillance data doesn't support your continued assurance that gay men ARE that group, it just identifies their modes of transmission i.e. homosexual/bisexual activity: that doesn't say they are "gay" at all.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
"There are certainly longterm non-progressors who can indeed resist disease progression. Over time however, the evidence suggests that longterm non-progressors do progress."

Apart from the fact that "longterm non-progressors do progress" is a contradiction in terms, it's also a moot point when "evidence suggests" instead of PROVING something.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
'Anon: Are you sure that EVERY notification is considered "gay"? What about needle-stick injury?'

Yes Prof, EVERY notification that is recorded as being transmitted by homosexual/bisexual activity is interpreted as being a "gay" man. Needle stick injury data is too small a figure to be in the same priority category as unprotected anal intercourse.
anon - Replies: add


Re:
"who said there was no need for HIV prevention campaigns? I'm saying they are working because the majority of MSMs and gay men in my experience are still practising safe sex after 20 years."

I disagree. They are not working because notification rates remain stable instead of dropping.

"well basically it means that those people who are putting themselves at high risk of HIV are in the minority."

That was ALWAYS the case, right throughout the history of HIV, which means nothing has changed - except campaigns have virtually come to a halt (at a time of a crystal meth epidemic).
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
'There is an independent body set up to monitor. In NSW it's the Communicable Diseases Branch of NSW Health. The branch produces quarterly HIV surveillance data for the department. The national HIV surveillance database is maintained by the National Centre for HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research at UNSW under contract to the federal department of Health. NGO's have absolutely no ability to "dictate the terms and conditions" of surveillance gathering and their campaign directions and priorities are decided upon by annual funding and performance agreements with NSW Health, based on the evidence gathered from surveillance data and behavioural studies.'

All the above metioned bodies only report notification data, they do not act without advice on surveillance initiatives. NOGOs are the advisors of all sexual activity survey sample structuring, and therefore DO dictate what is found.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
So tell me, which SOPV's do MSM's attend? (don't the posters of poofters on the walls kinda give them a hint they might be gay?)

The SOPV crystal using clients are the "gay" ones, of course.

'and which websites do they log onto? (the only websites i know have the word "gay" in their title, so i'm guessing they would steer clear of them considering they don't consider themselve "gay").'

Nope, they don't steer clear. A high percentage are not gay-identifying, they are either "Bi" "curious" "openminded" or some such variation of that descrpition.

Your whole problem is that you are "guessing" things.
anon - Replies: add


Re:
"No-one has suggested that prevention should be any less of a community priority. Quite the opposite in fact."

The poster did not say "gay community priority", they said "community priority". So where are all these supposed prevention message initiatives?
ord guy - Replies: add


MSM's
"'and which websites do they log onto? (the only websites i know have the word "gay" in their title, so i'm guessing they would steer clear of them considering they don't consider themselve "gay").'

Nope, they don't steer clear. A high percentage are not gay-identifying, they are either "Bi" "curious" "openminded" or some such variation of that descrpition."


But that doesn't clue them up to the fact that they might be at risk regardless of what label they place on themselves???

Please, give them some more credit than that. If they are capable of finding a SOPV/website and make it a part of their lifestyle, then quite obviously they are capable of realising that thye are also at risk because some of the other men they have sex with might be - gasp! - gay.


"Your whole problem is that you are "guessing" things."

Relying on HIV notifications and periodic surveys is not guessing things but saying those stats are completely wrong with no evidence to back the argument up IS.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
There is an independent body set up to monitor. In NSW it's the Communicable Diseases Branch of NSW Health. The branch produces quarterly HIV surveillance data for the department. The national HIV surveillance database is maintained by the National Centre for HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research at UNSW under contract to the federal department of Health. NGO's have absolutely no ability to "dictate the terms and conditions" of surveillance gathering and their campaign directions and priorities are decided upon by annual funding and performance agreements with NSW Health, based on the evidence gathered from surveillance data and behavioural studies.'

Are you seriously now claiming there is no co-operative working relationship between those and key government funded NGO branches of the HIV sector responsible for public health promotion? And who is the more weighty in terms of influence such as PR volume and funding?
anon - Replies: add


"you seem to have a great deal of authority on living with HIV for a neg man."

I'm poz. But, as I'm sure you'd agree, pixguy, being poz doesn't actually give you automatic insight into much beyond your own circumstances. Knowledge of HIV and it's broad impact requires application, experience, study and a commitment to evidence-based research.
regular poster - Replies: add


"NOGOs are the advisors of all sexual activity survey sample structuring, and therefore DO dictate what is found."

No they're not. NSW surveillance data is collated by NSW Health.

The Sydney Periodic Survey is conducted by the National Centres in HIV Social Research and HIV Epidemiology and Clinical Research.

NCHSR carries out behavioural studies and NCHECR runs longitudinal sudies like Health in Men and Positive Health
from which behavioural data is also extrapolated.

Check out the NCHSR and NCHECR websites. Click on publications and browse away.

The NGO's are the recipients of the data. Not the intiators.

Campaign priorities are dictated by annual funding and performance agreements with NSW Health which are in turn based on the NSW State HIV strategy, which contains targets and objectives that all funded NGO's are required
to meet.
regular poster - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Campaign priorities are dictated by annual funding and performance agreements with NSW Health which are in turn based on the NSW State HIV strategy, which contains targets and objectives that all funded NGO's are required
to meet."

NSW HIV Strategy etc is a co-operative system of which NGOs surely are a link in the chain. If one reads though various board member lists the same names frquently recur.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
"Relying on HIV notifications and periodic surveys is not guessing things"

No it's worse, when those doing the 'relying' are fully aware that those periodic surveys are under-representative and misleading. When those surveys only cover concentrated areas of gay subculture then assessing everyone outside of those restrictions is indeed guesswork.
- Replies: 1, add


bareback or not?
is having sex without a condom but pulling out and cumming is this still bareback or is bareback cumming inside?
- Replies: 1, add
Re:
their conscience efforts to practise safe sex."

I got HIV because "I thought" the guy who was fkg me was wearing a condom. (because we "always" did) I also "thought" that he cared enough about me to do so. well I was wrong on both counts.

chance is a fine thing, being careless is one thing being unlucky is another.
Now if you've got eyes in your butt & night vision I applaud you.
aktiv8 - Replies: add


Re:
"... when those doing the 'relying' are fully aware that those periodic surveys ..."

You are again making totally unfounded accuations.

This discussion has gone around and around and around. There is nothing new being said. It is now finished.

ALL FURTHER POSTS ON THIS TOPIC WILL BE DELETED!
Panther Confirmed - Replies: add


so where does a poz queen go in this town to get a voice, when community papers and website close ranks to prevent debate on anything that bothers the industry?
(signature removed by Panther) - Replies: 1, add
Re:
Pinkboard is not preventing you having a debate. You have had this debate already.
Panther Confirmed - Replies: add
People who dont think before they speak
"so where does a poz queen go in this town to get a voice, when community papers and website close ranks to prevent debate on anything that bothers the industry?" - Tue 20 Jun 2006 21:52:36

Here's a novel idea. Start up your OWN website.
Aiden Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Barebacking" basically describes anal sex without a condom.
regular poster - Replies: 1, add
Re:
so where does a poz queen go in this town to get a voice, when community papers and website close ranks to prevent debate on anything that bothers the industry?" - Tue 20 Jun 2006 21:52:36
Here's a novel idea. Start up your OWN website.
Aiden - Tue 20 Jun 2006 23:44:51
----------------------------------------

This IS our own website.
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add


running your own website just to push ur agenda is a tad sad, n'est pas?
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
'Start up your OWN website.'?

It wouldn't be the first time poz men had to do just that. Three years ago, 360 poz people living in private rental had to fight their org. which was working with the Dept. of Housing to herd them all into HIVphobic public housing:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/sassters/

After six months petitioning the state govt., having questuions raised in ferderal Parliament and an extensive letter writing campaign, etc...they WON.
pixguy - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, 2, 3, 4, add


I got involved with CSN and Ankali back in the 80's. And I just got a new CSN client today. I guess its my way of experiencing connection with community. For others, they feel they have to join their peers doing crystal to feel a part of the community. The message they get is that everyone's doing it now and it's supported at the parties. Other guys get a sense of connection by doing flesh-on-flesh. I wonder how many will be living the death of addiction in ten years time. And how many will be HIV+, living in poverty and isolation.

Some people's connection with community is to sit back and snipe anonymously. Taking the piss, negating the bleeding obvious, may be a hoot but I wonder if the addicts and pozzies reading this archive in a decade will be amused.
pixguy Confirmed - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
"Barebacking" basically describes anal sex without a condom."

...then perhaps you SHOULD look further than a gay web forum: Even the government are in the dark it seems. Federal Liberal MP Warren Entsch revealed a shaky understanding on Monday on his Channel 7 interview about assylum seekers. He believes a lack of quarantine on Australia's northern borders poses a health risk - including from HIV, which he claims can be transmitted from saliva. Asked if HIV was transmittes sexually, Entsch sai, "Well, it is, but with respect it's also transmitted by blood and saliva." No case of HIV transmission has been recorded, and saliva is not considered to be infectious according the today's Sydney Star Observer's In Brief column, P5.
so get cracking sweetie - Replies: add


Re:
"It wouldn't be the first time poz men had to do just that. Three years ago, 360 poz people living in private rental had to fight their org. which was working with the Dept. of Housing to herd them all into HIVphobic public housing:"

Yeah Pixguy, I remember it vividly, and also a great sense of connection among poz guys, as you were just discussing. Thanks to that campaign I'm comfortable and happy in my home, which is a huge thing really when you aren't well enough to commit to a full time job, as so much of your time is spent there. Domesticity is such a positive diversion and good for the self esteem etc. I could never have enjoyed that living in a homophobic housing estate, it would have been the last straw.
PJ Confirmed - Replies: add


Re:
It wouldn't be the first time poz men had to do just that. Three years ago, 360 poz people living in private rental had to fight their org. which was working with the Dept. of Housing to herd them all into HIVphobic public housing:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/sassters/

After six months petitioning the state govt., having questuions raised in ferderal Parliament and an extensive letter writing campaign, etc...they WON.

---------------------------

Yo, go the Sassters! More grassroots lobbying using that as an example please. Maybe this time we could campaign to educate the community about just how much harm crystal causes their health, as well as its globally documented links with HIV infection.
Sister Sasster - Replies: add


Re:
Did someone mention Sassters? Man on man, that saved my life. Best thing in Sydney for decades. Having a wall like this a a good thing too (except for certain obvious 'presences' but hey, vermin would survive a nuclear holocaust they say) ya just have ta live with it like a bad smell.
Poz Power - Replies: add
Re:
It wouldn't be the first time poz men had to do just that. Three years ago, 360 poz people living in private rental had to fight their org. which was working with the Dept. of Housing to herd them all into HIVphobic public housing:

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/sassters/

SASSters rocked baby (& it saved my bacon).
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
"Some people's connection with community is to sit back and snipe anonymously. Taking the piss, negating the bleeding obvious, may be a hoot but I wonder if the addicts and pozzies reading this archive in a decade will be amused."

So true Pixguy, and how about the MP in the news - Entsch - who was worried about assylum seekers and their saliva spreading HIV. You'd think some would be using their energy educating the public (at least Federal ministers) about how HIV is spread. It just goes to show how the message has never carried much further than Taylor Square desn't it?
anon - Replies: add


Re:
'Some people's connection with community is to sit back and snipe anonymously. Taking the piss, negating the bleeding obvious, may be a hoot but I wonder if the addicts and pozzies reading this archive in a decade will be amused.'

That's all some people have ever done pixguy (AND get paid). Actually I do think an education campaign is way overdue, what with crystal taking over people's lives, and leading to BBing (which is already happening without that added catalyst), which will spread HIV and won't be diagnosed for some years like you pointed out. But the pozzies getting hooked can't remember to take their meds on time so this will lead to viral resisitence - those strains will spread/superinfect etc and the whole pattern is counteracting the progress from all the new meds coming out.

Yes and Sassters just saved everyone in the nick of time from being shipped off to hell holes like Northcott (Suicide Towers) where if you didn't cut your own wrists someone cut your throat for you. Maybe it's time for another grass roots initiative (RugUp is not really addressing the Tina problem, and nowhere near the expected quota have been attracted to it - perhaps due to its association with certain orgs). But then after the kudos being snatched away from the battlers after Sassters it may not happen again in a hurry. What do peopple on here think of the idea of a totally independent initiative?
ord guy - Replies: add


Queensland AIDS Council deserves applause for its integrity
I very much like the move the Queensland AIDS Council is making by changing its name. In today's SSO P9 Steven Easy mocks and has a go about the new name but I just really really like the integrity it displays. You see, apart from having embraced all sorts of non-AIDS related projects it's no longer claiming to be an AIDS council by way of titular means, which means that all funding from, for example, the government, will not be assumed to be intended for AIDS. All community fundraising generousity will be with full awareness that this place will be using the resources in many ways other than AIDS.

Easy says: "...And so this brings me to the Queensland AIDS Council, and their recently announced decision to fuse this word 'health' with that other over-used, tortured cliche, 'community,' and re-badge the organisation 'Queensland Association for Health Communities.' Can someone please tell me what the fuck this is all about? Who are these 'Communities' and why are they 'Healthy'? And what does the title really mean - to anybody? Who's going to find a listing for the Queensland Association for Healthy Communities in the White Pages and guess it has anything to do with poofters? Or indeed, dykes, or injecting drug users, or even AIDS?" (I must agree with him on the 'Community' word, though, I never did think that was used in its proper context re gays and lesbians).

To me the answer to Easy's question is blaringly obvious. More kudos to the Queensland Association for Health Communities for making the statement they are not an AIDS council and not pretending to be one by use of a misleading name that may attract sympathy and revenue inappropriate to its goals.

(There, now don't anyone ever say I never said a good thing about an AIDS org) :-)
ord guy - Replies: add


The US response to crsytal addiction is working, local results in California reported:21.06.06
"There is finally some good news about the most sinister drug on the black market: crystal methamphetamine. Nationwide demand and production is down, according to federal drug cops. Meth, which has been linked to the spread of HIV in Long Beach's gay community, is still out there, but law enforcement officials say plenty of busts are reducing supplies. We hope that treatment is part of the equation nationwide as it is California, where voters agreed to put more users in treatment than in jail."

(From "A Few Lines On Meth" author unstated, Press Telegram.com http://www.presstelegram.com/opinions/ci_3964723

Obviously treatment options are costly (private costs) so it makes sense to aim to prevent rather than cure. Prevention of addiction is managable to some degree by community health education initiatives.
anon - Replies: add


Re:
I thought it was panther's website.....
- Replies: 1, add
Re:
"I thought it was panther's website....."

He'd be having a very lonesone discussion with himself. This page header reads: "This wall is a discussion about living with HIV. This includes those who are living with the virus itself, those caring for people ill from the virus, those who encounter the virus in sexual situations, etc."

That's me.
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add


Cutting Edge SBS
The Meth Epidemic (USA)

Tuesday, 27 June at 8.30pm
This documentary investigates the ‘meth’ rampage in America: the appalling impact on individuals, families and communities, and the difficulty of controlling an essential ingredient – ephedrine and pseudoephedrine – sold legally in over-the-counter cold remedies. There are 1.5 million methamphetamine addicts in the US: more than coke and heroin put together and the social cost has been enormous.
aktiv8 - Replies: 1, add


Re:
So that mean that Big Brother (the television show) is mine because i interact with it? (I watch it and vote).

I think you are confusing "using" and "owning". The website is Panther's and he has the right to veto discussion points (think of him as a moderator who's doing it what is necessary to stop the wall from getting bogged down (if that's possible)).

Don't get me wrong, i've thought in the past that the moderation was completely inconsistent, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's Panther's website and if I don't like how he's moderating then I am free to leave (and I have in the past).
- Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
First, a tip. Watching Big Brother is like voting for John Howard or masturbating. Noone ever admits to it.

Second, this wall is a discussion about living with HIV. Panther owns the domain, but it is comprised of the intellectual expression of our contemporary community and that can't be owned. Without that input, there would be no wall.

I don't know how ownership of a domain qualifies one to 'moderate' a discussion, i sometimes wonder at what is censored, and I am still baffled as to why the major organ for HIV/AIDS in this state remains a taboo subject. But I am very happy to have had the occasion to put my thoughts up here because the contemporary picture of 'Living with HIV' is very different from my day to day experience.

And thirdly; wtf are we arguing about ownership for anyway?
pixguy Confirmed - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Panther does a fantastic job and I am enormously grateful for the effort he makes with all of these boards. I have no idea how he manages it financially as obviously there must be some cost.
Panther lover - Replies: add
Re:
"S'o that mean that Big Brother (the television show) is mine because i interact with it? (I watch it and vote).
I think you are confusing "using" and "owning". The website is Panther's and he has the right to veto discussion points (think of him as a moderator who's doing it what is necessary to stop the wall from getting bogged down (if that's possible)). Don't get me wrong, i've thought in the past that the moderation was completely inconsistent, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's Panther's website and if I don't like how he's moderating then I am free to leave (and I have in the past)."

If all are free to participate in a discussion it's irrelevant who owns the forum it's in. What's relevant is whether that owner chooses to selectively silence speakers of certain viewpoints. However, this is apparently not the case on here to date, which is why I have not left. Nevertheless, I don't see what point you're making. If you left in the past maybe you should again now - or at least give yourself a name.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


2 gay anti-crystal campaigns launched: Toronto Star 23 June 2006
Personal-ad websites have helped establish a Toronto bareback culture where men meet for anything from one-on-one action to group sex at house parties. Personal ads range from explicit requests for unsafe sex to subtler cues like "prefers raw action." And ads often feature the initials "pnp" — party and play. "Party" stands for crystal methamphetamine and other inhibition-lowering drugs, while "play" means marathon bouts of sex that can start on Saturday and end Monday morning.
"The barebacking scene is linked to a tight social group and a lot of substance use," says Dr. Kelly MacDonald, director of the University of Toronto's HIV research program. "Almost all the unsafe sex is associated with drugs." The AIDS Committee of Toronto and other community partners are launching two new programs that speak directly to experiences like James'. A website (http://www.himynameistina.com) is warning crystal meth users that the drug, informally called "Tina," is unhealthy, highly addictive and can hamper a person's better judgment under the sheets. And "Be Real" is a new Ontario-wide HIV prevention campaign launched in time for Toronto's Pride Week. It asks men to look after both themselves and the people they have sex with.

(Extracted from "Not Safe, Not Sorry" Patrick Evans, Toronto Star) http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1150974513339&call_pageid=968867505381&col=969048872038
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
Yes Active8 there's lots of really interesting news about that issue and in fact those ingredients have now been heavily restricted (banned in some parts) from over-counter sales in the US and here there's a registration scheme to list every purchaser of Sudafed and related non-prescription drugs when over-counter transactions are agreed to (many pharmacies refuse). But over in the US and Canada there are also major health education campaigns in response to crystal abuse, which are showing positive results already, whereas here there is a blind eye turned by HIV bodies. Don't you think that's odd?
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add
SSO: Paul Dillon writes of UK class upgrade, local arrests BUT NOTHING re health dangers/HIV link
In the current SSO (821) P30 Paul Dillon writes - considerably later than we did on here - about crystal in the UK and its classification upgrade to "A", yet consistent with his and community health orgs' usual line failed to elaborate on the crystal situation HERE, other than that in Sydney increasing numbers of people have recently been charged with methamphetamine production or importation of its precursor chemicals & that this week four people were charged after more than two million pseudoephedrine tablets were found in a furntiture container shipped from Jakarta to Sydney - he writes of this legal news and UK affairs & admits knowledge of the World Health Organsisation estimate of 35 million people globally using the drug and derivatives.

NO mention of crystal's documented peculiar adverse health hazards (to HIV positive users in particular) and known HIV risk behaviour link, just a warning not to get caught and his standard issue footnote re for those not wanting negative consequences to not use drugs.

Is this the most education Sydney gays will EVER get on this known killer? That's disgusting.
anon - Replies: 1, add


Tips
"First, a tip. Watching Big Brother is like voting for John Howard or masturbating. Noone ever admits to it."


I always admit to watching Big Brother as i'm quite enjoying it this time around.

I voted for John Howard in the last election (he was way down the list on my preferences but still above Labor, so essentially he got my vote - i live in a safe labor electorate so i was trying to make it a swinging seat so we'd get money thrown at us next time around)

And as for masturbating, i don't have a problem with admitting that. and i would've thought that others on this forum wouldn't either.

So basically there is no problem with any of the things you pointed out.
- Replies: add


Re:
I freely admit, I would love to get my hand on some of the pseudoephedrine. With the new regulations in place for normal users of this substance, you face a grilling by the pharmacist, fill out a special form and show ID (even the 'though I only ever visit the one chemist), and the you pay three times the price for about a third of what used to be a packet.

That's the sad part: legitimate users of a product are now penalized because of those few who profit from the eventual misery of others.
The Professor Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


I posted this comment 2 or 3 weeks ago. I think the point is a substantial one.

"Well I have used xtal at dance parties, had a fabulous time (but not really different from ordinary speed) and had no desire whatever to take it again for several months. I don't doubt that what is said above is correct. However, exaggerating the dangers of a drug just alienates the thousands of people who know that this "truth" is only partial".

I now see that my comment has been transformed into this:

"one of whom habitually braggs about his crystal habit and unsafe sex practices"

Neither statement has any basis in fact. I haven't bragged about a "habit" because I don't have one and I've never bragged about having unsafe sex because I never, ever have it. Can you see why I get angry at the total rejction of opinions that don't suit yours? Can you see why I resort sometimes to personal comments? I don't believe that I'm a negative or spiteful person or vindictive person. But I will speak out when opposing or questioning views are treated with utter contempt. Some of you want to stop xtal abuse and unsafe sex. That's great! I don't want these things either but I think you are going about persuading people in completely the wrong way.
Xtallographer - Replies: 1, 2, 3, 4, add


"I don't know how ownership of a domain qualifies one to 'moderate' a discussion, i sometimes wonder at what is censored,"

Panther is the owner of the domain, and in the eyes of the law he is also a publisher. Therefore, anything libellous published on Pinkboard could open Panther to a defamation action, just the same as if he owned a newspaper or magazine. Several years ago during a very heated political debate about Mardi Gras board elections, there was just such a threat, and hence the introduction of moderators on Pinkboard, primarily to protect Pinkboard from being sued.
Samantha J Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


Re:
Really? For one pack of Codral or Sudafed? I bought Codral Day and Night last week and no-one blinked an eyelid. How much are you buying Prof?
- Replies: 1, add
Re:
I accept your point, Xtallographer, and am sorry you feel you have been misrepresented. If you are able to use a highly addictive drug in a controlled way, you are very lucky. Just like some people are 'social smokers' and can have just one or two a day.

The point that was being made was that for the majority, crystal is a one-way cul-de-sac; there's no way back, or out. I don't think there is any arguing this simple truth, there are statistics from hundreds of institutions and 1000's of webpages. Addiction rates are calaculated at between 60 - 90% of users with the mean around 75%. Of those 50% report that they practice unsafe sex.

I do believe that all of the negative posts about crystal above were intended to point out the horror of the situation and were not necessarily directed at you. And beyond that, the overwhelming issue has been that so much is being done overseas to fight this epidemic while nothing is done here.
pixguy Confirmed - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
"Panther is the owner of the domain, and in the eyes of the law he is also a publisher. Therefore, anything libellous published on Pinkboard could open Panther to a defamation action, just the same as if he owned a newspaper or magazine."

Actually the moderation guidelines state that: "Comments will not be allowed that are discussing moderation policy" (that's what you're doing, Sandra) OR "contain 4 letter words" (PB is riddled with em LOL) :-) I have enough publishing knowledge to be aware that there are several measures protecting Pinkboard from such legal action. One is the disclaimer: "By accessing this Pinkboard Graffiti Wall web page you acknowledge and agree that the comments, text, statements and other material on this page are the personal opinions of the persons who post entries on the walls. All such comments, statements and other material are not to be taken as statements of opinion, fact, advice or information of Pinkboard, its employees, servants or agents. Furthermore Pinkboard makes no representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness thereof." But you miss the point made, Samantha, about people speaking truth questioning their right to a voice after ALREADY being verbally attacked on Pinkboard (which it also claims it won't allow yet does). The Pinkboard Moderation Guidelines read: "Moderation is not: censorship, preventing views being aired." There's also the written claim that: "Moderation is intended to make the Graffiti Walls fun and informative. It is not to prevent discussion of difficult topics."
clean 4 10 - Replies: add
And with this post we will finish this off-topic thread.


Re:
"But I will speak out when opposing or questioning views are treated with utter contempt. Some of you want to stop xtal abuse and unsafe sex. That's great! I don't want these things either but I think you are going about persuading people in completely the wrong way."

That's a case of the kettle calling the pan black, your own postings were treating the ones already HERE with "utter contempt". People tend to treat you the way you've treated them. (BTW And I think you're going about persuading people in completely the wrong way by attacking posts about crystal dangers and insisting that "I must be an exception to the rule" - what school of persuasion is that from?)
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
I'd have thought people would be more appropriately informed by something like "...is associated with numerous serious physical problems. The drug can cause rapid heart rate, increase blood pressure and do damage to the small blood vessels in the brain – which can lead to stroke. Chronic use of the drug can result in inflammation of the heart lining. Overdoses can cause hyperthermia (elevated body temperature), convulsions and death...And if that’s not enough, individuals who use crystal meth also may have episodes of violent behaviour, paranoia, anxiety, confusion and insomnia. The drug can produce psychotic symptoms that persist for months or years after an individual has stopped using the drug...Professionals tell us that you may use crystal meth once and get away with it – use it the second time, and you’re hooked" than "Well I have used xtal at dance parties, had a fabulous time (but not really different from ordinary speed) and had no desire whatever to take it again for several months". Pardon me for mentioning it but it doesn't sound as if you've had much experience in carrying safety messages about lethal, illicit substances that the users don't know the ingredients or strength of, nor does your posting ID name give much credence to this new claim that you "want to stop xtal abuse and unsafe sex."
anon - Replies: add
Re:
As has been already said, it depends on the pharmacy. There are half a dozen around the main drag of Kings X. Two refuse point blank to sell Sudafed - period (even to those regular customers whom the pharmacists know are highly unlikely to meddle with speed, as once word gets out around the community that they've broken a rules for one, others will demand equal leniency). Two have the register system whereby each any customer requests a personal purchase they agree to have their details entered onto a register, which enables surveillance of pseudoephedrine purchasers and may be used in investigations surrounding illegal operation - this system also closely monitors frequency of purchase per individual registered customer. The remaining two pharmacists in that small area have different rules for different circumstances and customers, and the leniency varies according to who is on management duty at time of purchase request. However, there is ongoing debate about various formulas
other than plain Sudafed(e.g. Codral Day & Night, Telfast, Xergic and other generic variations etc) as to whether all can be used as easily for illicit pseudoephedrene extraction as the basic Sudafed types, as some versions of pseudoephedrene are less basic than others and less likely to be used for illicit operational attempts.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add
Re:
Yeah that is interesting and I do find it odd. when I first came to Sydney 6 years ago, I remember an impassioned letter in the gay press from an American tourist at mardi gras time, bemoaning the damage that crystal had done to the gay scene in san francisco and imploring us to be careful of not going down that path. Alas - here we are then! fortunately for me, i don't know one person who uses crystal so I can't say much about it.
aktiv8 - Replies: 1, add
Re:
"Some of you want to stop xtal abuse and unsafe sex. That's great! I don't want these things either but I think you are going about persuading people in completely the wrong way."

Xtallographer, the majority of comments I've read on here and heard locally are of the thinking that New York's current Silence=Meth campaign is the way to go, how would you think this style of persuasion was "completely the wrong way"? I just read that, unlike here (where there's a conspicuous lack of local study data commissioned), in NYC the relationship between Crystal Meth and HIV/AIDS has become clearer over the past few years with studies showing that Crystal Meth users are more likely to engage in unsafe sex and that HIV-positive men are more likely to use Crystal Meth. In a 2006 survey of NYC gay and bisexual men in, approx 1 in 4 indicated the use of Crystal Meth in the period of six months prior to the assessment. In a previous study this figure was estimated to be 14%. Just as the ACT UP campaign alerted the NYC gay community to AIDS in the 1980s and 90s, the NYC LGBT Community Center's Silence=Meth campaign will focus attention on the danger of Crystal Meth and what the entire community must do to help prevent abuse and addiction to this drug. Silence=Meth ads are part of a larger campaign to focus anti-Crystal Meth messaging not only on the gay and bisexual men who use the drug, but on the friends and loved ones of the users, as well. It's obvious we have the same issue in Sydney, as do most gay capitals, and equivalent resources to address it accordingly, so what is your objection to this direction Xtallographer? Why would Sydney isolate itself in throwing caution to the wind and waiting for disaster to reflect in notification data several years down the track? Read about it for yourself @ 247 Gay.com: http://www.247gay.com/article.cfm?section=9&id=9607
PJ Confirmed - Replies: add


Re:
Yeah, San Fran community were 2 yrs ahead even of NYC, with their campaigns warning gay men who use crystal are 400% more likely to become infected with HIV than the overall gay community. Headlined "Crystal Mess", the billboards featured images of users tweaking, crashing and engaging in high-risk behavior to illustrate the negative consequences of using the drug. The department of public health strategically launched the 2004 campaign to coincide with San Francisco's annual Castro Street Halloween celebration. The campaign adopted a frank, abrupt tone in the language of its target underground with headlines such as, "Crystal plays more tricks than you can," "Hot? Not," and "You're in for a bumpy ride."
http://www.247gay.com/article.cfm?section=9&id=4531
PJ Confirmed - Replies: add
Good luck guys. Over and out.
Xtallographer - Replies: add
Re:
I'm a D, d, demazin user, because I rely on the complementary component chlorhexane... whatever. I could taken an entire packet of Sudafed without any noticeable effect whatsoever. It's the same with Paracetamol, 24 tablets later, still in pain, but throw in a little Codeine and suddenly it works.

My point is that now I'm out in the sticks, and rely on the one chemist who knows me and my family, he still has to sight ID before signing the stupid little form.

Because I have to take unusually heavy doses of medicinal drugs, I have steered clear of street drugs, for fear that I would end up taking a toxic quantity before noticing the supposed enjoyment--and secondly wtf toxic chemicals are used to make them?

I'm not going to attack Xtalographer. Enough people have done that already--I just put forward the original challenge of being able to leave it alone for six to twelve months even if only to prove to yourself that you're not "addicted".

I have been warned by my doctor that if I'm prescribed anything further containing codeine, I will have to be put on a National Register of Narcotics Users. That's despite the fact that last time I renewed a package, the last one had expired by two years!

I've also learned Ventolin (asthma spray) is addictive. The more you use, the more you need. Cigarettes reduce the frequency of asthma attacks, but increase the severity. After quitting smoking, and weaning myself off the Ventolin, I found I had to get rid of meats preserved with Potassium Nitrate (bacon, ham, sausages etc.) and I've not had asthma since.

Now I realize that I've talked more about drugs than HIV, but out here in the sticks, one doesn't get much sex, I emphatically deny watching Big Brother or ever voting for john howard, and I refuse to confirm or deny masterbating!
The Professor Confirmed - Replies: add


26 Jun 2006 Medical News Today reports study on crystal meth link to high risk activity in gay men
Studies have found that methamphetamine use among gay and bisexual men is up to ten times higher than in the general population.

...

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=45855
ord guy - Replies: add
Please do not post large slabs from articles.


In 2000-01 Uni of California and the San Francisco Dept of Public Health found that gay men who used meth were three times as likely to contract HIV as non-meth users. (Meth has also been linked to a resurgence of syphilis, gonorrhea, and chlamydia infections. I am guessing Stevie Clayton hadn't read this report recently when she blamed syph increases on positive men and ignored our meth epidemic).

Crystal is a largely ignored crisis in our community. We led the world 25 years ago on HIV/AIDS because we responded to it as a health issue, not a moral one. So why is crystal too hard for everyone?
pixguy Confirmed - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: 1, add


AIDS Healthcare Foundation (AHF), the largest AIDS organization in the United States, is joining the AIDS Community Action Foundation, AIDS Project Los Angeles, the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center and the Crystal Meth Working Group in calling attention to the growing problem of addiction to methamphetamine in Los Angeles County, through a manifesto printed in tomorrow's L.A. Times. According to the manifest, 35 million people worldwide use crystal meth, making it the second most frequently used illicit drug after marijuana. the document, which was originally created by the Crystal Meth Working Group and first appeared in the New York Times on June 15th, specifically calls on gay men to recognize the threat that crystal meth poses to their community and states that "we cannot stand by and do nothing!" Organizations ask that the community take responsibility by making informed choices about sex and drug use, not be silent and talk to other gay men about the dangers of crystal meth, show compassion for those who are addicted and help get them into treatment, fight for more drug treatment money, and finally, not to let crystal meth destroy an entire generation of gay men.

Press release AIDS Healthcare Foundation, Monday June 26 "Coalition Urges Gay Men Take a Stand Against Crystal Meth by Learning About the Dangers of This Increasingly Popular 'Party Drug'" http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060626/lam108.html?.v=49
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To view the manifesto see http://www.gaymeth.org/
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
"Crystal is a largely ignored crisis in our community. We led the world 25 years ago on HIV/AIDS because we responded to it as a health issue, not a moral one. So why is crystal too hard for everyone?"

Yes Pixguy I agree. The very latest development, released only today in fact, is a manifesto which can be viewed @ http://www.gaymeth.org/ 'AIDS Healthcare Foundation (AHF), the largest AIDS organization in the United States, is joining the AIDS Community Action Foundation, AIDS Project Los Angeles, the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center and the Crystal Meth Working Group in calling attention to the growing problem of addiction to methamphetamine. According to the manifest, 35 million people worldwide use crystal meth, making it the second most frequently used illicit drug after marijuana. The manifesto, which was originally created by the Crystal Meth Working Group and first appeared in the New York Times on June 15th, specifically calls on gay men to recognize the threat that crystal meth poses to their community and states that "we cannot stand by and do nothing!"' The press release is @ http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060626/lam108.html?.v=49
Of course, that's in the USA, nothing here yet I'm afraid, but it's only a matter of time before the matter can no longer be swept under the carpet by Australian gay health bodies, not when the crystal problem is a global gay issue and Canada, USA (NYC and LA) and UK recategorisation of crystal have taken the lead and set precedents.
PJ Confirmed - Replies: add


Today is National HIV Testing Day (in the US)
This is a great idea that could probably work very well here. National HIV Testing Day (NHTD) is an annual campaign produced by the National Association of People with AIDS (NAPWA-US) to encourage at-risk individuals to receive voluntary HIV counseling and testing. NAPWA distributes campaign kits to community groups and health departments of all sizes to help create NHTD campaigns and events targeting their local communities.
National HIV Testing Day (NHTD) is an annual campaign produced by the National Association of People with AIDS (NAPWA-US) to encourage at-risk individuals to receive voluntary HIV counseling and testing. NAPWA distributes campaign kits to community groups and health departments of all sizes to help create NHTD campaigns and events targeting their local communities. http://www.napwa.org/hivtestinfo/
ord guy - Replies: add
Ok guys, enough talking here. What practical action are you proposing? Oddly enough, I suspect the federal government would agree to fund a program on this. It's anti-HIV, anti-drugs. This hits both bases.
Brian C - Replies: 1, add
Re:
"Ok guys, enough talking here. What practical action are you proposing? Oddly enough, I suspect the federal government would agree to fund a program on this. It's anti-HIV, anti-drugs. This hits both bases."

Thanks Brian, I'm proposing a Crstal Meth education strategies equivalent to US initiatives in NYC, LA, San Fran, and in Canada, UK etc (e.g. billboard campaigns, manefesto, all of the above as spread over this wall) at present we have NOTHING covered by gay or HIV health bodies). Also an HIV testing campaign AIMED ACCROSS THE BOARD and not at the gay ghetto only, which will encourage unaware carriers of HIV to get tested as per US initiatives).
ord guy - Replies: add


I Think It's Time to Be a Little Paranoid
National testing is a great idea, if that's all it is. With the u.s. track history on human rights, how much of an HIV test sample is diverted for DNA profiling?

The only way I see this sort of blanket testing working, is that if it is administered through the normal channels of local pathology labs, the sample tagged with a "RANDOM" NUMBER ONLY, you are given a copy of that number, and you can then look up that number of a 'net register to get your personal result.

I look forward to the day when HIV can be tested at home like pregnancy, and sugar levels.
The Professor Confirmed - Just because one is paranoid, it does not meant they're not out there watching! - Replies: 1, 2, 3, 4, add


Re:
The "RANDOM" NUMBER ONLY, system is exactly how the Albion Street Centre tests.
pixguy Confirmed - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Re:
'National testing is a great idea, if that's all it is. With the u.s. track history on human rights, how much of an HIV test sample is diverted for DNA profiling?'

What you are suggesting is feasibly already able to happen (but it's highly unlikely that is does), so what difference would it make? I suspect most would be more concerned about ascertaining their HIV status than entertaining paranoia about DNA conspiracies. A National Testing Day advertising campaign need make no difference whatsoever to existing privacy/security of tests: "A 2003 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention initiative in which the agency distributed nearly 800,000 rapid HIV antibody tests to community groups and prisons helped bring in many more people for testing than usual, a new report says. The findings, published Thursday in the CDC publication Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, validate a widely held assumption—that people are more apt to seek testing if there is a quick and easy method, such as OraSure's saliva test for HIV antibodies, the CDC said." ("Quick HIV test has helped more people find out their serostatus" 247Gay.com Health News June 28, 2006 http://australia.247gay.com )

'The only way I see this sort of blanket testing working, is that if it is administered through the normal channels of local pathology labs, the sample tagged with a "RANDOM" NUMBER ONLY, you are given a copy of that number, and you can then look up that number of a 'net register to get your personal result.'

Testing has always been numbered and coded for privacy. But a National Testing Day would not be "blanket" it would follow standard testing protocol, so nothing to be negatively concerned about, it wouldn't be COMPULSORY, just an awareness strategy, like National Quit Smoking Day, and other National Testing days. It's proven to work.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"I look forward to the day when HIV can be tested at home like pregnancy, and sugar levels."

Rapid HIV testing just got easier with the launch of a revolutionary 24-hour service that allows clients to take HIV tests in the comfort of their own homes. The Know Now Organization (TKNO), a physician-based organization dedicated to making HIV testing and counseling more accessible, announced this past week that their services now include in-home rapid HIV testing in a rapidly growing list of metropolitan cities nationwide. This newest service rolls out just in time for National HIV Testing Day on June 27. http://www.247gay.com/article.cfm?id=9783§ion=66
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Is it true to say that ACON does nothing about Crystal meth? They provide really detailed info on their webpage about what Crystal is, what it does and how risk can be reduced. I don't know how many people consult the webpage or what notice they take of it. I accept that you disagree with the tone of the message but that's another matter.

With respect to your own proposal, I suggest writing letters to SSO, inviting other media outlets to interview you (local rags are always looking for stories), joining ACON (if not a member already) to push your views, starting up your own group (Rug-Up is a private initiative, I think, that's got quite a bit of publicity - their logo is flashing on this page as I write).... that's enough ideas for now.
Brian C - Replies: 1, add
Please read the rest f this wall and the previous walls to find the answers to your questions.


Re:
"I look forward to the day when HIV can be tested at home like pregnancy, and sugar levels"


I think home testing is a VERY bad idea. in NSW there is compulsory pre and post test counselling. Doctors have been chastised for not adequately doing the post test counselling where individuals have received a positive result and then not changed their sexual behaviours and gone on to infect others.

Having home testing kits would mean that people wouldn't get any post test counselling, let alone subpar post test counselling. they then could go on to hurt themselves due to stigma surrounding being positive - or others due to any anger they might feel at their result.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Having home testing kits would mean that people wouldn't get any post test counselling, let alone subpar post test counselling. they then could go on to hurt themselves due to stigma surrounding being positive - or others due to any anger they might feel at their result."

In the above mentioned scheme tests ARE provided with pre & post test counselling IN THEIR HOMES. It's included in the cost, as it could be here too. Read the linked article.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Is it true to say that ACON does nothing about Crystal meth? They provide really detailed info on their webpage about what Crystal is, what it does and how risk can be reduced."

They have no public education strategy or proposed initiatives about health dangers of crystal (when most other leading gay capitals' gay health bodies DO) and the web page you refer to is as much a lesson in using as it is anything else.
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add


Re:
ACON ran a series of very well attended community forums on crystal use through 2004/05 and have also produced a range of campaign materials around problematic drug use - which is recognised as an important health issue.

They don't "give lessons in using." As you're well aware, you are deliberately misrepresenting harm reduction messages designed to stop people harming themselves and risking IDU HIV infection. Just like Fred Nile and the NSW Liberal Party interestingly enough ....
Blue - Replies: 1, 2, 3, 4, add


Re:
"They don't give lessons in using."

Well what do you call "Have a hot shower or apply a hot washcloth to the injecting site for a few minutes, and/or pump your hand or arm up and down to increase blood flow, and Keep a spare pipe available in case one becomes damaged or becomes too hot... "? There is no "deliberate misrepresentation" whatsoever in pointing out that every gay capital in the USA has actively addressed crystal meth health dangers by merging HIV organisantonal resources with D&A ones and launching major health warning campaigns such as "Silence=Meth" etc. That here we have NOTHING, not even adequate commissioned (or recommended) studies, no health warning campaigns beyond a piddly little webpage that HIV- people would never even think to look for and HIV+ would know better than to waste their time reading. It's disgusting, inconceivably POOR in effort and lacking interest in the community addiction epidemic that we currently have. I didn't see Fred Nile and the NSW Liberals asking for a Meth hotline, a meth manifesto, meth billboards and posters with "Crystal Mess" headlines for queers, or a National Testing Day for HIV high risk candidates, or any of the other countless pontential measures outlined on here yet totally ignored. I did, however, hear people like Nile and the Liberals say things along the lines of "these users have a choice", which is the ACON line.
PJ Confirmed - Replies: 1, add


Re:
No you are misrepresenting me. I didn't say "give lessons in using" I said the webpage is as much a lesson in using as anything else. And it is. As for the community forums, ACON chose to ignore community concerns for action and are now paying the price for their obstinacy, when the result is that the problem has multiplied many fold since 2004/5 both here and globally - except in Canada, UK, USA proper address has been made. $400 million spent in the USA. Class "A" categorising in the UK. Just google and see the approx 0.5 million resources worldwide for crystal meth addiction suffering, treatment and recovery programmes and see how many of those are NSW initiatives. Heads must roll for this negligence.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add
Re:
Nothing has been done, the forums were a waste of catering, if that's what all these public millions go on they should shut shop, I can get more for my money at Subway.
- Replies: add
Re:
They haven't lifted a finger. Other cities in the world are totally onto it, mega campaigns and hundreds of millions spent, billobards, TV ads, posters on every lamp post, we get an unpublicised webpage (for pozzies, basically, who else would go there?) that basically tells us how to shoot up. The forums were a waste of time when ACON took nothing on board anyway, no input, no "engaging with community" just "This is what we're doing: Nothing."
debs - Replies: add
Crystal Meth
We have just had a debate on this wall about Crystal Meth. For those of you who came in late, please scroll up the page. Press the "Show the complete wall" button if you need to.
Panther Confirmed - Replies: add
Re:
Unfortunately in the current climate, a person getting an unexpected positive result in a non-supportive environment could result in attempts at self-harm, but as pointed out, even in supposedly "supportive" environments, the level of support is inadequate. The longer we continue down the yellow brick zero-compassion road that jwh has lain before us, then no matter the social efforts, people are still going to be hurt.

As stated previously, because of two needle-stick injuries and a knife-attack, despite testing negative, I still consider myself has having a non-zero risk factor. Blanket national testing days would be welcome if I could trust the government behind it.
The Professor Confirmed - Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


That's all very reasonable. This discussion has been raging here for weeks now. Lots of people have expressed passionate views. Some (but not all) believe that ACON has done nothing of significance to address the crystal/risk-taking/HIV issue. But is saying this on Pinkboard again and again and again going to change anything? Surely the time has come to take other action -even writing to ACON or SSO would be a start. You might be so cynical about ACON that you can't see the value in doing anything. But, then, where does leave you? Anger should = action.
Brian C - Replies: 1, 2, add
Re:
"Blanket national testing days would be welcome if I could trust the government behind it."

Nothing to do with "blanket" anything or anything to do with the government. A National Testing Day campaign is simply an awareness exercise to encourage people to go and get tested (normally) one day a year.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
The governement doesn't come into it. You send the blood off to the lab. End of story. A qualified professional presents the result READ THE ARTICLE.
- Replies: add
Prof, can I be incredibly personal and ask how one person resident in regional NSW could sustain two needle-stick injuries and a knife attack when you don't sound like a psychopathic ICU nurse? Disregard this if you wish. Apologies for the intrusion but I can't help myself asking.
Mr Nosy Parker - Replies: 1, add
Re:
'writing to ACON or SSO would be a start.' fyi, i have written to acon, to question their submission abandoning pozzies. i never recieve a reply. try it for yourself. acon is a very large slice of sso's advertising budget. its difficult to get them to publish anything critical of advertisers. remember when stonewall pulled their ads after an adverse article?
pixguy Confirmed - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
Pinkboard is unable to verify this statement.
Re:
So are you saying all HIV testing should cease as long as the current Prime Minister is in office? It's already been pointed out that a the home testing method tries and tested INCLUDES pre and post test counselling support, just as it's already been pointed out that no one on here has suggested "blanket" national testing days.
PJ Confirmed - Replies: 1, add
Re:
It'a also documented on here time and again what happens when people do submit feedback to ACON - they either tell them they have an axe to grind, ignore them or argue with them. It's been done. Comments like these aren't a result of inaction. The gay press also have a policy of minimising what is said about ACON in its letters columns, perhaps because of the advertising relationship (ever heard the term "gagging the media"?). Whatever, your assumption that no action has been taken is incorrect and unfounded, like Panther said you need to observe the rest of the wall/s to find amswers to these questions.
PJ Confirmed - Replies: add
leading HIV/AIDS expert says authorities need to look at campaigns to encourage safer sex
A leading HIV/AIDS expert says Australian health authorities need to redouble their efforts to control the spread of the virus. The comments come in the wake of figures showing there has been an increase in new infections, particularly in Victoria.Last year there were 286 new HIV infections in Victoria, which is a significant increase on previous years. Infections in Queensland increased slightly while the New South Wales rate remained steady. Professor Frank Bowden from the Australian National University says it is concerning. "The extraordinary improvement in HIV numbers which was seen in the 1980s and 90s is now being turned around and Victoria now has numbers similar to the peak in the 1980s," he said. He says authorities need to look at campaigns to encourage greater personal responsibility when it comes to safe sex.

ABC Online: Thursday, June 29, 2006 http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200606/s1675011.htm
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
We actually have very high testing rates among at risk populations compared to other countries - especially the US - and around 700,000 HIV tests are carried out in Australia every year now. Mainly on people who are not at risk.

We don't have the sort of low testing rates that would necessitate the sort of campaign that NAPWA US advocates. We have one of the lowest seroprevalence rates in the developed world and an HIV epidemic that is still significantly contained within the initial at risk population.

It's essential to keep the testing message out there but blanket national testing would accomplish nothing much here other than a major blowout in state health expenditure.
Blue - Replies: add


Re:
In every survey I've seen, a small minority of gay men report crystal use though the use has certainly been increasing. There's absolutely no argument that crystal - and other drugs (and most crystal users are also other drug users) can and do wreak havoc and equally no argument that gay health promotion should be (and is) aware of that. But identifying one drug as "the whole problem" is ultimately counter-productive in a community where polydrug use is the norm and aknowledgement of a personal problem comes down to a personal decision to do so.

We don't use American "abstinence or death" approaches here because they don't work. For people who can manage drug use the messages just look like scare tactics. For some people, abstinence is the only sensible choice and that point needs to be made but "multi-million dollar" mass campaigns would IMO be a colossal waste of resources.
Blue - Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Re:
'We don't use American "abstinence or death" approaches here because they don't work. For people who can manage drug use the messages just look like scare tactics'

Results (on this wall) show the NYC, SF, LA, Toronto, Ontario and others do work. Scientific analysis of crystal meth shows it's uniqueness from other drugs and that onlt a tiny minority can "manage" not to become addicted. Now as there is no treatment available (from public health) for crystal meth addiction, how can you argue that prevention is not better than cure? The only prevention is information.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
'We don't use American "abstinence or death" approaches here because they don't work.'

That's not true. Right through the '80s and most of the '90s we heard that message about unprotected sex. It worked - at the time. The same message about crystal is working - but net here as no one's invested in it.
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add


PS
Monet spent on HIV prevention is (public) money saved on HIV treatments.
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add
Re:
HIV infection rates in all those cities are higher than Sydney's.
- Replies: 1, 2, 3, add
Re:
"That's not true. Right through the '80s and most of the '90s we heard that message about unprotected sex. It worked - at the time."

You left out the bit about treatments coming along in the mid 90's. The fact that HIV was a death sentence before then - and now isn't - does have a great deal to do with different attitudes to risk and prevention pre and post the mid 90's.

Most people who use Crystal don't see death as the ultimate outcome of so doing and telling them that it will be won't work as prevention.
Blue - Replies: 1, 2, 3, add


Re:
It certainly is clean 4 10!
Blue - Replies: 1, add
Re:
'In every survey I've seen, a small minority of gay men report crystal use '...

The HIM survey found that 20% of those surveyed had used meth. Noone ever tries meth just once. (KCI.org) 50% of users in a survey of 74,000 said they practice UAI. In California, 40% of poz men were users compared to 18% poz/non-users. Crystal is very cheap, more cost effective than any other drug, and can even be made at home in about 6 hours using easy to obtain ingredients. There are 1000's of sites online that provide instructions on how to bake at home. Its not hard to extrapolate these figures to see the Sydney community decimated in a very short time. "A small minority' might be a bit of an understatement. :)

'We don't use American "abstinence or death" approaches here because they don't work.' The Grim Reaper campaign scared the bejesus out of everyone and suddenly we were all slipping on a rubber. I don't think we can overstate the threat of crystal. At least guys thinking of using should be given all the facts, not just a safe blasting brochure....Eventually tweakers will trade all their friends, their homes, all their education and knowledge, all their family members, everyone who loves them, all their money, sanity and self respect, even their will to live - for crystal.

For some, crystal also creates insane fits of rage and violence. Innocent animals are often the victims of ice rage. Many users will end up in jail. Others will end up in psych wards.

CrystalRecovery.com notes that users experience an intial rush followed by up to eight hours of powerful sense of wellbeing. As the drug wears off, the user becomes depressed, paranoid, anxious, incapable of accomplishing tasks. Users become addicted because they are always 'chasing the dragon' - trying to re-experience that initial rush. After long term use, the bitch turns, and it becomes more difficult to get any sort of rush because the drug shuts down the brain's natural production of neurotransmitters.

I think it should be clear that crystal is our worse enemy, it will devastate our community as it has in major overseas gay communities like California. While we worry about far-right and religious persecution here, it may be that the decimation of the Sydney community comes from within.

I don't think we can afford to be complacent at all. Americans I know plead with me, please don't let them make the mistakes we made.
pixguy Confirmed - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add


Re:
Money spent on HIV prevention is (public) money saved on HIV treatments.

"It certainly is clean 4 10!"

Then you're contraditcting yourself by claiming: "multi-million dollar mass campaigns would IMO be a colossal waste of resources."
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
You left out the bit about treatments coming along in the mid 90's. The fact that HIV was a death sentence before then - and now isn't - does have a great deal to do with different attitudes to risk and prevention pre and post the mid 90's.

Most people who use Crystal don't see death as the ultimate outcome of so doing and telling them that it will be won't work as prevention.

------------------------------------
Then clearly they need EDUCATING.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
"HIV infection rates in all those cities are higher than Sydney's."

The authorities are doing it in awareness that data shows a pattern (there's a lack of equivalent data commissioned by survey here). Everyone seems agreed that future infection rates (5-10 yrs hence) here will show a huge blip on notification reports to signify the crystal factor compounded by the condom fatigue one, and that is why more testing campaigns are agreed to be a requirement. Sydney is not different from the above mentioned cities with crystal meth addiction epidemics - except we are the most conspicuously lacking gay capital when it comes to crystal health danger campaigns.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"You left out the bit about treatments coming along in the mid 90's. The fact that HIV was a death sentence before then - and now isn't - does have a great deal to do with different attitudes to risk and prevention pre and post the mid 90's."

I was taking that into account. When HIV was considered a death sentence, prior to the mid-90s "Silence=Death" abstinence style campaigns WORKED in combating unprotected sex. BEFORE the education campaigns that TOLD people that unsafe sex=death, no one knew there was a danger and no one used condoms. Likewise with crystal. The majority of gay men here are not informed and don't KNOW the health dangers - once they are informed most will make more sensible choices, just as they did with condoms and HIV prior to the mid-90s.
PJ Confirmed - Replies: add


"We don't use American "abstinence or death" approaches here because they don't work. For people who can manage drug use the messages just look like scare tactics"

Results (on this wall) show the NYC, SF, LA, Toronto, Ontario and others do work. Scientific analysis of crystal meth shows it's uniqueness from other drugs and that only a tiny minority can "manage" not to become addicted. Now as there is no treatment available (from public health) for crystal meth addiction, how can you argue that prevention is not better than cure? The only prevention is information.

"HIV infection rates in all those cities are higher than Sydney's."
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Just which is your argument here? (And do you think Sydney should just sit back and wait for the rates to soar? We can learn from those other gay capitals as they have and are from each other)
PJ Confirmed - Replies: add


Re:
"HIV infection rates in all those cities are higher than Sydney's."

Umm, I suspect that might be due to their higher populations.
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
"Most people who use Crystal don't see death as the ultimate outcome of so doing and telling them that it will be won't work as prevention."

Yes it will, results are tried and tested.
- Replies: add


Re:
You have every right to ask. I lived in the Sydney region from 1983 to 1999.

My first needle-stick injury was incurred when I used to collect discarded syringes from beside a primary school on my way to work. I used to fill Milo tins faster than I could consume the Milo. It was then my practice to seal the tin as tightly as possible and take it to a chemist for proper disposal--it was a matter of statistics; the sheer numbers that I was collecting made an injury almost a certainty.

The second such injury and knife attack both occurred while I was working in the Security Industry, in both cases on nights that I was not carrying the loathed firearm, and so conveniently, off-duty... the George Street knife "attack" was a glancing blow to the chest as it bounced off another intended target, so my injury was sustained by a knife which had someone else's fresh blood on it. It was a gang incident, and the knife came and went so quickly it was nigh on impossible to identify the offender once people closed ranks.

The syringe incident occurred when I was working on Oxford Street, and I used to have to wait for a trick to vacate a parking space in the vicinity of the wall. While walking back to my car after work, I intervened to protect one of those poor kids working the wall and got badly scratched by the hypo.
The Professor Confirmed - No good deed goes unpunished. - Replies: add


Re:
Bugger the current prime-minister (actually the camel demanded too much money)--it's the whole infrastructure that I don't trust.

I've seen too many fathers tortured by their exes using children as handbags, and yet in the two cases that I've handled where the fathers should never have been allowed anywhere near the children again, the Court went against all common sense and handed them over.

Both john howard and george bush are too stupid to have been involved in the planning of Port Arthur and 911 respectively, but they sure as hell got plenty of electoral mileage out of them. In either case, there is sufficient conflicting evidence to tell us that the official versions are NOT true, and that the TRUE versions will probably never be known--just like the supposed origins of HIV. I'm not about to endorse any particular "conspiracy" THEORY because they're only useful in discrediting the official line, not in revealing the truth.

When I used the term "blanket" testing, I did not mean compulsion, I simply meant it as an "all covering" opportunity for men and women to be sure of their status. I like the idea of attending a path-lab that you don't normally visit and getting a random (how random?) number, but after being thoroughly educated on the ins and outs of so-called "democracy" during the 1975 dismissal, I see more and more evidence of a police state. How many people can see the introduction of "porn blocking" software, as our country's first attempt at taking control of the 'net? I don't have a problem with porn on the 'net--I've managed to block it all myself, it's the gambling sites that are driving my computer mad. Australians have one thing in their favor when it comes to this type of control: sheer volume of traffic!

If anything, teenagers questioning their own sexuality should be able to visit sites like Pinkboard, not have them censored. They need to know they're not alone in their feelings. Yes, Panther has gone to some effort to block the darker side of the board from under-age, but shouldn't we be embracing and educating these kids rather than letting the government ostracise them?
The Professor Confirmed - Is there a government on this planet we can trust? - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
I don't see that any of that is on topic with either HIV or the notion of having a National Testing Day campaign to encourage testing and raise awareness to people outside the ghetto.
ord guy - Replies: add
Re:
'I simply meant it as an "all covering" opportunity for men and women to be sure of their status.'

That still is not what was meant, Professor. The "opportunity" exists now all the year round for every Australian to go and be tested wherever they choose. The whole point of a National Testing Day campaign is not to increase opportunity but to make people think to do it. Just like national days for mammograms, prostate tests, Daffodil Day, Quit Smoking Day, etc etc. All sorts of health conditions have this strategy to encourage testing, and increased testing is the way to find who is unknowingly infected, and to prepare them to protect others and get themselves under medical supervision. This very same strategy is what is being suggested re crystal meth and information, to equip people with knowledge required to make appropriate decisions that with preserve the well being of themselves and the community at large.
PJ Confirmed - Replies: add


Re:
"HIV infection rates in all those cities are higher than Sydney's."

'New South Wales continues to have more people infected with HIV than any other state.'(Professor Frank Bowden of the medical school at the Australian National University) June 30 2006 ABC Newsonline http://www.abc.net.au/news/health/sophie_scott/newsitems/s1676098.htm
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


New to Sydney.

Anyone recommend a good bulk billing doctor in inner city area?
- Replies: 1, add


Ord Guy: I admit to wandering off-topic (it's that ecclecticism again).

PJ: Perhaps we are looking from different angles (and that can be a good thing). My greatest concern is GENUINE anonymity, and proper support for those who need it--even if all the patients are John Aaron Smith, John Andrew Smith, John Arthur Smith, Jane Michelle Smith, John Paul Smith...

I know that in this town the only way I can get tested anonymously is travel to a nearby town, claim needle-stick (again) under a false name, say--John Winston Howard Smith, and pay cash for everything.
The Professor Confirmed - My paranoia is not without foundation, but wanders too far off topic for this board. - Replies: add


NYC Groups Warn Gays Of Meth Dangers (but nothing on the cards for Sydney)
"We believe that the most powerful and effective way to put an end to this progression is for gay men to stand up for each other and take a stand against meth. You can help by signing on to this manifesto. If enough of us sign on, we can create a unified message that changes the way gay men think -- not just about crystal, but about ourselves and our community," the organization's Web site reads."Crystal users are twice as likely as nonusers to bottom without condoms, and more than twice as likely to test positive for HIV. Meth users are also four times as likely to have syphilis, and 1.7 times as likely to have gonorrhea," the Web site adds. "In short, meth doesn't just mess with your health. It destroys lives."

(Extracted from: "NYC GROUPS WARN GAYS OF METH DANGERS" Outcome Buffalo July 1 2006 http://www.outcomebuffalo.com/meth-6-30-0630010.htm
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Of course Sydney's gay health bodies don't need to because "it's not the only problem," "telling people the dangers won't work as prevention" (even though it has in California) and "HIV infection rates in those cities are higher than Sydney's" (which they would be with higher populations). Sydney gays won't be educated despite the March 31 2006 recommendation of NDARC to "educate recreational users about associated risks" in it's report estimating 73,000 Australian addicts, 50% admitting to unsafe sex, 75 crystal related deaths in 2004 up from 50 in 2003, just under half occurring in NSW. http://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/NDARCWeb.nsf/resources/PR_1/$file/OVERDOSE+PR+2006.pdf
ord guy - Replies: 1, add


Re:
Not at all. The seroprevalence rate - the rate at which HIV occurs per 10,000 population - is much higher. It's got nothing to do with the total size of the population.
Blue - Replies: add
Re:
If you're looking for an HIV prescriber then there's a number of medical practices in the Oxford/Bourke St area. Most now confine bulk billing to pensioners but I think one or two may still provide blanket coverage.

Various practices (in no particular order) include Taylor Square Clinic; 407 Bourke, Holdsworth House in Oxford St; Ground Zero in Little Oxfors St. Google them for contact details.
Blue - Replies: add


Re:
ord guy, you seem to be confusing total population with seroprevalence.

NSW has always had more PLWHA than other states. It's because Sydney has the largest at risk population concentration.
Blue - Replies: 1, 2, 3, 4, add


Re:
Ord Guy, that's all very persuasive but I suspect that you're talking here to the converted. I know I'm a late comer to this discussion but I actually have taken the trouble to read back to check where you all are coming from. I endorse your view but ask again, "OK but where to from here?" To say, "It's ACON's responsibility" doesn't get us anywhere when you and several others feel, based on previous encounters, that that won't result in anything happening. They do have material on their website but I agree that it does suggest that the risks of crystal can be contained by following certain steps. You are advisinf us I think that that message is not sharp or clear enough.
Brian C - Replies: 1, 2, add
Re:
"OK but where to from here? To say, 'It's ACON's responsibility' doesn't get us anywhere when you and several others feel, based on previous encounters, that that won't result in anything happening. They do have material on their website but I agree that it does suggest that the risks of crystal can be contained by following certain steps.You are advisinf us I think that that message is not sharp or clear enough.'

It's not just whether it's sharp or clear enough, the message goes no further than ACON's website. How many of the 73,000 Australian addicts currently having unsafe sex do you think are going to look at that web page? And of the handful that may, how many will come away "educated about the risks"? It is the duty of our gay health body to campaign proactively. And no, I'm not talking here to the converted, if you've read the background discussion on here you'll see strong opposition to crystal campaigns, arguing everything from "not the only problem" to "waste of resources" to "lower notification rates than overseas". ACON have an obligation to make proper effort to follow the recommendations of the NDARC report to "educate recreational users of the risks" http://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/NDARCWeb.nsf/resources/PR_1/$file/OVERDOSE+PR+2006.pdf
If we educated out smokers about health risks by simply putting the info on a web page which incorporated a set of instructions on "how to smoke safely" we'd still live in a nation of smokers.
ord guy - Replies: add


Re:
"ord guy, you seem to be confusing total population with seroprevalence."

No I'm not confusing any such thing, if you'd taken the trouble to follow the threads backwards you'd see the following:

"In every survey I've seen, a small minority of gay men report crystal use though the use has certainly been increasing. There's absolutely no argument that crystal - and other drugs (and most crystal users are also other drug users) can and do wreak havoc and equally no argument that gay health promotion should be (and is) aware of that. But identifying one drug as "the whole problem" is ultimately counter-productive in a community where polydrug use is the norm and aknowledgement of a personal problem comes down to a personal decision to do so. We don't use American "abstinence or death" approaches here because they don't work. For people who can manage drug use the messages just look like scare tactics. For some people, abstinence is the only sensible choice and that point needs to be made but "multi-million dollar" mass campaigns would IMO be a colossal waste of resources. Blue - Fri 30 Jun 2006 11:27:38

Results (on this wall) show the NYC, SF, LA, Toronto, Ontario and others do work. Scientific analysis of crystal meth shows it's uniqueness from other drugs and that only a tiny minority can "manage" not to become addicted. Now as there is no treatment available (from public health) for crystal meth addiction, how can you argue that prevention is not better than cure? The only prevention is information. ord guy - Fri 30 Jun 2006 13:24:28

HIV infection rates in all those cities are higher than Sydney's. - Fri 30 Jun 2006 15:15:10

'New South Wales continues to have more people infected with HIV than any other state.'(Professor Frank Bowden of the medical school at the Australian National University) June 30 2006 ABC Newsonline http://www.abc.net.au/news/health/sophie_scott/newsitems/s1676098.htm ord guy - Sat 1 Jul 2006 09:33:54
---------------------------------------------
I think you'll agree that none of that discussion content refers to total population and all refers to seroprevalence.
ord guy - Replies: add
The latter of your following two statements is what I was saying all along
The seroprevalence rate - the rate at which HIV occurs per 10,000 population - is much higher. It's got nothing to do with the total size of the population.
Blue - Mon 3 Jul 2006 15:26:23

NSW has always had more PLWHA than other states. It's because Sydney has the largest at risk population concentration. Blue - Mon 3 Jul 2006 15:42:27
ord guy - Replies: add


Seems here is some effort for Sydney's campaign-funded to draw inspiration from:
"San Francisco, a city that has been struggling with and fighting against meth use in both gay and straight populations for almost 20 years, recently reported a significant decline in crystal meth use among gay men—from 18 percent in 2003 down to 10 percent last year. Gay advocates, prevention activists and health officials all attribute the drop to persistent and relentless education, prevention and collaboration, including allocation of resources by government and the LGBT community to the problem. Their immediate response to the success of their prevention and intervention efforts was an ongoing commitment to those efforts by launching this year’s “Crystal Clear” campaign."

Extracted from "Are We Winning the War on Meth?" By BARBARA WARREN July 03 2006 New York Blade Online. http://www.newyorkblade.com/2006/7-3/viewpoint/opinion/warren.cfm
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
"NSW has always had more PLWHA than other states."

Oh, so because it's always been like that there's no need to do any crystal health risk campaigning. I see, that makes perfect sense.
clean 4 10 - Replies: add


Re:
"confusing total population with seroprevalence"

I hardly think he was under the impression the total polulation has seroconverted, Blue :-) It stands to reason that a place with a smaller population will have less PLWHAs. Your semantic fondling doesn't mist over the point being made.
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, add


Re:
"NSW has always had more PLWHA than other states. It's because Sydney has the largest at risk population concentration."

That's no reason to ignore the crystal meth crisis, quite the opposite. The fact that, to use your own words "NSW has always had more PLWHA than other states. It's because Sydney has the largest at risk population concentration" is exactly why this discussion is taking place, when the UN (see 2nd posting from top of this wall) and NDARC have both said prevention strategies need tweaking. Someone just now posted the excuse "other cities that have crystal campaigns have higher HIV rates" yes because they have more people to begin with and also they have experienced the crystal boom which will show in Sydney's future notificatiuon rates if not similarly addressed. Don't you understand that? It's VERY VERY VERY straight forward. Someone has not only been caught napping, they're stubbornly refusing to own up to it as well. And being paid for getting away with it with MY TAXPAYER $$$. Many people are very angry about this. I feel a higher authority needs calling in and the wider community needs to know just what the situation is. Much has already been said on here about the basic HIV prevention message not reaching much further than the gay ghetto, and about the cyrstal using public needing educating about health risks. No response has been undertaken in addressing these linked concerns.
datographer - Replies: add


Re:
If we don't get crystal meth campaigns NOW our HIV notification rates will soar dramtically.
datographer - Replies: 1, add
This post should be interpreted as an opinion.
Re:
Hardly a semantic point. There's a significant difference between total population, total infected population and the rate at which infections occur within that population.

New York, San Francisco, and Los Angeles all have higher populations but they also have much higher seroprevalence rates; i.e the rate at which infections occur per 10,000 head of population.

Sydney has a higher positive population than Melbourne or Brisbane but the rate at which infections are occuring in the latter two cities is currently higher than in Sydney.

OK?
Blue - Replies: 1, 2, add


Blue, being accurate doesn't always get you far on this wall.
Friendly warning - Replies: add
Worldwide Trend to now start allowing Gay Men to give blood... why should Australia be any different
"Michael Cain, the young gay man who has challenged the Red Cross ban on gay blood donation, has had his case accepted for a full-hearing before the Tasmanian Anti-Discrimination Tribunal.
This is much more than just another step in the normal, complex processes of an anti-discrim appeal.
Never before, anywhere in the world, has a blood collection agency been forced to defend a ban on donation by sexually-active gay and bisexual men in a court of law that has the power to strike down such a ban.
In the past, blood collectors needed only say "gays have higher HIV rates" to have courts respond "case dismissed".
But a lot has changed in the last couple of years.
New clinical testing techniques have made HIV detection much quicker and cheaper.
The adoption of new, more flexible, blood donation guidelines in Europe and Australia have opened up the possibility of reforming blood donation policies.
The replacement of a blanket gay blood ban with a ban on donors who have unsafe sex, has actually reduced the number of HIV infections through blood donation in Spain and Italy.
Most of all, society is slowly and fitfully waking up to the damage caused by gross generalisations about sexual minorities.
These developments have fuelled a movement for change across the world.
Blanket bans on gay blood have been challenged by civic leaders, human rights organisations and health bodies (including blood collection agencies) from Sweden through South Africa to the UK and the US.
Until yesterday, Australia was absent from this growing list.
Now, thanks to a brave young man from Launceston, it’s at the top.
http://www.rodneycroome.id.au/weblog.php
http://tglrg.org/more/201_0_1_0_M3/

... What makes Australia so special that we need to hold on to homophobia & discrimination like a comfy blanket we're afraid to let go of, when the rest of the world is passing us by in reform?
Mark - Replies: 1, add


Re:
ACON opposed it.
ord guy - Replies: 1, add
Re:
Well, Blue, just what benchmark seroprevalence would you like for NSW before you consider we need extra prevention measures executing and a crystal meth warning campaign? And waiting for that is waiting until the damage is done, which is a tad negligent. I'm afraid you're evading the issue. With a crystal addiction epidemic on our hands here it's only a matter of time before our notification rates shoot up, as users are hardly likely to go for testing when they can't get any other part of their daily lives together.
- Replies: add
Re:
If we don't get crystal meth campaigns NOW our HIV notification rates will soar dramatically.
datographer - Tue 4 Jul 2006 13:05:35

This post should be interpreted as an opinion.
-------------------------------
Pardon me for making an accurate observation, but since when did interpreting hard fact as "an opinion" become the new black? With a proven link (between crystal abuse, unsafe sex and HIV transmission) plus a recorded 50% of surveyed crystal users admitting to this prompting the UN and NDARC to recommend tighter preventative measures (as documented on THIS VERY WALL), as well as sound news coverage by the ABC and world records on crystal sending HIV rates soaring in places that have had the crystal epidemic longer then Sydney (San Fran, NYC, LA etc)... exactly which part of "we don't get crystal meth campaigns NOW our HIV notification rates will soar dramatically" "should be interpreted as an opinion"? (Or do PB moderators have some expertise not shared with NDARC, the UN and the whole $400 million USA crystal campaigning admin?)
clean 4 10 - Replies: 1, 2, add
Nasty Comments
People again are making nasty comments back and forth. If this doesn't stop I will close the wall for winter.

If you disagree with someone say "I disagree because ..."
Panther Confirmed - Replies: add


Re:
"Sydney has a higher positive population than Melbourne or Brisbane but the rate at which infections are occuring in the latter two cities is currently higher than in Sydney. OK?"

Wrong. You don't know "the rate at which infections are occuring", only what notifications tell you from previous periods, which does not necessarily account for current high risk activites of non-testing HIV carriers/spreaders, namely crystal addicts who won't get to be tested as long as they're on a permanent binge, as well as non-ghetto men who have sex with men who are not targeted in prevention campaigns (which don't exist anyway).
Yellow - Replies: add


Re:
If we don't get crystal meth campaigns NOW our HIV notification rates will soar dramatically.

There is no way that this can be a statement of fact unless you have psychic powers.

Also, you have put together a number of facts in a manner which is not provable mathematically. I do not have the time nor inclination to enumerate to logic flaws.

Please note: I have expressed no opinion whether your opinion is true or false, just labeled it as an opinion.
Panther Confirmed - Replies: 1, 2, add


Re:
...
Extrapolating the likely HIV rates from crystal use is not diificult. 20% of gay men interviewed in the last HIM study admitted using crystal. Allowing for false reporting, the time since that study was done and the alarming rate at which crystal addiction grows in communities, it's frightening to think of how many addicts there are in Sydney now, especially in the gay scene where crystal=parties=sex. 50% of addicts report they practice unprotected anal intercourse.

Given that the usual practice is to spend days to a week 'up' and then an horrendous week coming down, using booze, heroin or cocaine to soften the comedown, I doubt that many addicts are able to get themselves to an sti/hiv check. And even when they inevitably seroconvert to HIV, its dubious that the symptoms would be noticed along with all the effects of crystal. It is inevitable that there will be a large and growing number of undiagnosed HIV+ crystal addicts. Crystal is an incredibly sexual drug. This is the experience of gay communities in capitals all around the world and one of which we have been warned. All the recalcitrance, obsfucation and burying of heads in the sand will not change a thing. The calls for action on this wall seem totally reasonable to me. Six years ago, Peter Canavan, President, National Association of People Living With HIV/AIDS (NAPWA) wrote "a communication gap exists between patients, service providers, scientists and Government..." and "the potential for funds leakage is very real..." The same sentiments are still being expressed here on this wall today. What a pity if we missed the chance to reverse this trend because we were all too frightened to admit a problem exists.
pixguy Confirmed - http://shaynechesterstudio.com - Replies: add
People again are making nasty comments back and forth. If this doesn't stop I will close the wall for winter.
If you disagree with someone say "I disagree because ..."
Panther - Wed 5 Jul 2006 08:19:01

NB
"There is no way that this can be a statement of fact unless you have psychic powers." Panther - Wed 5 Jul 2006 08:32:18
Is the latter post saying "I disagree because"? - Replies: add
I realised that on refletion. I apologise.


Re:
So how do you think the global Chicken Flu estimates were mad, was that using psychic power too?
- Replies: add
Re:
So did the Australian Federation of AIDS organisations and just about every epidemiologist and federal and state health agency.

Based on your claims of a vast horde of undiagnosed poz MSM out there, ord guy, I thought you'd be keen to retain the 12 month donation ban post MSM sexual encounters :)
- Replies: 1, add


Re:
It seems that whenever data is posted that doesn't support your preferred theory, it's wrong. Whenever you make an observation, it's automatically right.

National and state surveillance data around HIV transmissions is pretty credible and it doesn't suggest an imminent soaring in transmission rates. Crystal is a problem - a fact that no-one has denied - but it's not the only reason for HIV transmission occuring or even the most significant reason. In the most recent Sydney Gay Community Periodic Survey, which over 3,000 people answered, around 20% of partcipants reported using Crystal. That's problematic but it doesn't, with all due respect, amount to the huge, overwhelming crisis that's being claimed.

Of course we need to recognise the problem but and
Blue - Replies: add


Re Stevie Clayton's response in Crikey.com
Ms Clayton's pussyfooting response to Pete Tibby's excellent article is laughable. To camouflage the NSW HIV notification rates (steady rather than dropping or vanished) as a positive when NSW has always had the most PLWHA and Sydney has the largest at risk population concentration, is grasping at straws. But to then claim this imaginary "success" as ACON's doing is ludicrous when it's NSW's population taking the relevant preventions to contain the spread. The 2004 forums Clayton refers to sparked outrage when ACON asserted there was no causal link between crystal use and unsafe sex, and that an "insignificant" proportion of the community used crystal. Community members reacted furiously to ACON president Adrian Lovney's summing up: "We shouldn't be driving our response by anecdote." Equally absurd is Clayton's latest claim that ACON "provides access" to Crystal Anonymous, when that programme is independently accessed and bypasses all other agencies. The advice in ACON’s dodgy crystal user’s booklet includes: “Have a hot shower or apply a hot washcloth to the injecting site for a few minutes, pump your hand or arm up and down to increase blood flow and keep a spare pipe available in case one becomes damaged or becomes too hot..”
ord guy - Replies: 1, add
Where does Stevie Clayton (Crikey item 31. July 05 2006)
Where does Stevie Clayton (Crikey item 31. July 05 2006) imagine ACON "have been acknowledged in the AIDS and drug sectors internationally for our comprehensive response" to crystal meth addiction? In Life Or Meth ACON is an international embarrassment. I quote:

"ACON previously described a sex club's decision to import anti-meth posters from the States as 'not terribly helpful.' Their chief executive officer, Stevie Clayton, told the Sydney Star Observer: 'What happens is people who don't use crystal start thinking that crystal is the problem which is causing HIV transmission, and therefore if they don't use it they're not at risk, and people start thinking people who do use crystal are bad and are the people who are transmitting HIV.' ACON isn't new to controversy: its bathroom facilities are equipped with sanitary bins for needles and syringes for the convenience of visitors and employees who self-inject meth on the premises."
http://www.lifeormeth.com/australasiapacific

As for her statement re: ACON's "responses to crystal use range from harm reduction to abstinence but they have their roots in a commitment to harm minimisation a commitment we are proud to defend" she's obviously ignorant to the fact that there's no safe way
of using crystal meth.
nathan - Replies: add
Re:
What about a 12 month ban on all heteros who have had anal sex in the last 12mths? Or better yet- a ban on all PEOPLE who have had anal sex in the last 12mnths- that way it would be equal & not discriminatory against sexual orientation.
And... what about those gays (& straights) who HAVE had sex in the last 12mths with only the one long term partner? Why should they be excluded from giving blood, gay or straight?
- Replies: add
Re:
"Ms Clayton's pussyfooting response to Pete Tibby's excellent article is laughable. To camouflage the NSW HIV notification rates (steady rather than dropping or vanished) as a positive when NSW has always had the most PLWHA and Sydney has the largest at risk population concentration, is grasping at straws. But to then claim this imaginary "success" as ACON's doing is ludicrous when it's NSW's population taking the relevant preventions to contain the spread."

So which is it? Is NSW's population actually "taking the relevant preventions" (which you've insisted for weeks they are not) or is ACON culpable for only providing a plateau in infections rather than the peaks of neighbouring states?

I don't why, ord guy, but I kind of get the impression that nothing ACON ever does will be acceptable to you and your commentary inevitably ends up being judged in that light.


For the record, I thought Stevie Clayton's response was measured, sensible and accurate.
- Replies: add


There is surely a need for a national symposium of HIV/AIDS and other gay organisations to debate the impact of crystal meth on men's behaviour; the role of educational programs, and the balance of harm reduction vs alarmist policies.

I doubt that any one of us here on PB has the power to make this happen. Can I suggest writing to SSO, ACON etc to advocate for a symposium? If we are genuinely committed to a social cause, we'll phrase your letters in such a way that they serve our long-term objectives.

Be positive! Don't give up! Don't say, "xxx just ignore my comments". Put your argument in a way that promotes change. Otherwise nothing will happen. Slagging off organisations on Pinkboard gets us nowhere. Let's move on from this boring, repetitive name calling.
Brian Cranley - Replies: add


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